who thought of 'the sound'?

[RUSSET]

nice one Chas! that just about covers it. I've always wondered how the Brit rockers had such a distinctively different sound from their american counterparts. When you listen to the Ventures,chantays etc, the sound is so different from the shads! Thanks

mike

Many of the so called 'Surf' bands in the USA who recorded so many of their instrumental forays, used the Fender Jazzmaster & later on the Jaguar, as their Lead instrument, unlike the UK who seemed to prefer the Strat, following Hank's example.
The Jazz & Jag were the latest, more expensive guitars from Fender & are different beasts entirely. Hence the distinct sound the Ventures had compared to the Shads. There was also the great Duane Eddy too, who was known to use Gretsch & Danelectro guitars.

Tony.

[Bluesnote]

Sorry to change the tone here so to speak, but the great Joe Pass(my favourite jazz guitarist) played a Fender Jaguar in his early years too. And Hank never tried to play or sound like him(well I dont think so).
We could go on forever in this vast subject I'm sure It's just the way things evolve at the time really. We can all be thankful that Hank found the right mix in instruments and amps and effects at the right time and the rest is history.
Nobody really thought of "that" sound, it just happened I'm sure.

[chas]

One other important issue to do with The Shadows is that apart from Hank's sound, the rhythm, bass and drums play such an strong role (partly playing style, partly imagination) on their recordings, and contribute greatly to the overall sound. Early records had such an exciting sound - When I heard other bands such as The Ventures etc., they seemed to lack something compared to The Shads. I even used to like the 'levelling' that was apparent on old 45's where in a gap or pause in the lead sound, the rhythm or drums would jump up!

Chas

[Bluesnote]

One other important issue to do with The Shadows is that apart from Hank's sound, the rhythm, bass and drums play such an strong role (partly playing style, partly imagination) on their recordings, and contribute greatly to the overall sound. Early records had such an exciting sound - When I heard other bands such as The Ventures etc., they seemed to lack something compared to The Shads. I even used to like the 'levelling' that was apparent on old 45's where in a gap or pause in the lead sound, the rhythm or drums would jump up!

Chas

Thats true Chas. I'd say that Jets bass lines were much more energetic and different from other players of the time, perhaps due to his jazz background in his earlier playing life. The Bruce's solid rythm on the records too. Not forgetting Tony's drums filling in the backing in different way too.
The Ventures and other bands of the time seemed to lack tone and energy I thought.
Hugh.

[Mike Honey]

thats a good point. i guess when most people talk about the shadows sound they are referring to hanks sound (which is what most try to emulate) but the shads sound is indeed the sum of the parts, but then personnel has changed over the years as well. Perhaps thats why there are so many differences in the sound over the years (ignoring the modern technology aspect of course!)

mike

[Bluesnote]

I remember a band I used to watch in the early sixties at their practice hall. The bass player had to do far more than Jet did when playing The Savage(as if Jets bit was'nt hard enough) due to the rythm player totally refusing to do Bruce's part properly. He had to double up the notes for most of the tune to try and fill in the missing backing, leaving him totally knackered at end of the number.
All this was what made the Shads. They all put their best into every tune giving it 100% all the time, whereas other bands obviously did'nt, or could'nt.
Hugh.

[RayL]

The Shadows were lucky that the right tune came along at the right time. After all, they'd recorded several instrumentals prior to Apache which had slipped by unnoticed with the record-buying public. Of the UK guitarists who were competant at rock'n'roll, Bert had already recorded Apache but had done nothing with it and Big Jim had done two Jerry Lordan vocal sessions earlier in 1960 (I'll Stay Single and Who Could Be Bluer) but the tune did not come his way. The Shadows were fortunate to be on a tour with Jerry and to have the ability to recognise the potential of the tune even when it was played to them on a ukuele!

'That sound' relies on having enough gaps and extended notes in the lead guitar line for the effects of repeat echo and tremolo arm to be effective. Apache offers that, along with Jerry Lordan's characteristic way of inserting major chords into a minor-key tune, and it has some interesting changes in rhythm which point up the contributions of rhythm guitar and drums.

'Apache' has the following similarities with 'Move It' and 'Rock Around The Clock':
1. The choice of the band, not the record producer.
2. Recorded as a 'B' side
3. Initially selected as the 'B' side even after the record producer had the 'A' side for comparison
4. The record that took the band/artist into the big time
5. Recognised in retrospect as a 'landmark' recording which took popular music into a new direction.
6. Once the template had been created, the band/artist were able to produce many more of the same quality to cement their place in rock history.

Ray L

[Martyn]

For me the most distinctively Shads sounds are those earlier recordings where the rhythm guitar is an accoustic, the bass is notably trebly and the drums are quite 'thin' sounding too, which sounds all blend to form an equally balanced singular backing that allows Hank's playing to stand out quite clearly without being lost within that mix. Given we used to play their records on Dansette or other such simple record players that had fixed tonal settings with virtually no bass responses, this may be why this more trebly sound evokes such fond memories, which is why I prefer to play Apache using the original Shads backing, rather than modern BTs because despite the almost successful process of removing Hank's guitar likewise removing some of the other musical frequencies, the end result just seems more authentic. Once Bruce started using a strat for accompaniment, to me that early sound was lost forever.

Without wishing to embarrass Justin, when I heard his new band play at the recent Children In Need concert at Reading, despite the awfully hard accoustics of that sports hall adding unnecessary and conflicting reverberations to the mix, that same early sound was recreated right there and I'm sure that same tingle of nostalgia was felt by many who stayed late to listen to their performance. Aside from Justin's playing skills that so accurately emulate Hank's style, the wonderfully authentic accoustic guitar used for the rhythm section made a huge difference to the overall sound that other bands using strats were't quite able to communicate, excellent though they all were. For me that rhythm guitar was possibly the most significant element of the accompaniment mix.

[hansaustria]

In this forum we talk only about the american and the british sound - using delays and echoes !

But we shouldn`t forget the INDO GUITAR scene in Holland. The "Tielman Brothers" were on stage
for years earlier than the Shadows and other well known instrumental groups - http://indorock.pmouse.nl/story.htm -
and to play JAVA GUITAR was a challaenge for every gutar player.
They did also lots of experiences with echo boxes and delays and LES PAUL was their biggest influence !!!!!!!

Hans

[chas]

In this forum we talk only about the american and the british sound - using delays and echoes !

But we shouldn`t forget the INDO GUITAR scene in Holland. The "Tielman Brothers" were on stage
for years earlier than the Shadows and other well known instrumental groups - http://indorock.pmouse.nl/story.htm -
and to play JAVA GUITAR was a challaenge for every gutar player.
They did also lots of experiences with echo boxes and delays and LES PAUL was their biggest influence !!!!!!!

Hans

That's really interesting Hans - not something I was aware of (the bands or the scene). When I was young, the only contact I had with music of the era was radio, and given that the radio stations I heard (here in the UK) were what my parents would have had on (BBC Light Programme etc.), so 'pop music' content was limited, not only to the amount of air play, but to what the UK record companies released which was largely British or American. There was probably lots of different scenes going on all over the world at that time which in the UK we'd have heard very little about. I wonder how many instrumental groups around the world (Guitar based Shads type of line up) there were outside of the UK and the US, particularly if they pre-dated The Shads?

The 10 string Jazzmaster was interesting too - I built a 9 string Strat in recent years, though not an original idea (there were some available in the 60's - Vox/Eko spring to mind). I should have kept it - it worked well on Shads numbers like Foot Tapper, Main Title Theme, etc.) I'll have to make another!
Chas.