The Sixties Didn't Start Until 1962!

[stratmantd]

Was this programme part of a series; the previous episode being the 50s or was it in isolation?

If it was a single programme then name and shame the producer so that we can write to him and educate the idiot. I suspect that they were trying to talk about the 60s but only included people/bands who first became well known in the 60s. This would exclude a few people who had a bit of influence on the decade such as Elvis, Roy Orbison, The Everly Brothers and of course Cliff & The Shadows to name but a few. They would have been considered part of the 50s. Considering that acts such as these were the influences for the acts to come in the 60s probably did not occur to the producer who, if not too young to make the connection, should really have done more research.

By only bringing your feelings to the fore on this forum they will continue to get away with it. Unfortunately, the first post in this thread did not begin.... I have just written/emailed the BBC/ITV/whatever production company to complain about their totally lack of knowledge about the 60s and how it wasn't started by The Beatles but that they were a consequence of what had gone before them which started in the mid-fifties. Had it done so then we could have enough information to contact the TV or production company and inform them that we are not happy with their lack of proper research. Enough people complaining might make a difference. Complaining on a forum not associated with either of them will not.

[drakula63]

A few weeks ago there was a big article in Weekend, the Mail's Saturday magazine, which celebrated the 50th anniversary of The Beatles. Although I can't remember exactly what was said, again, it more or less stated that before the Beatles, there were NO homegrown groups of any merit. A shame that the media, in general, seems to have now classed anything prior to the Beatles as having been irrelevant.

Wasn't it George Harrison who stated "No Shadows; no Beatles". I think that says it all.

[Tab]

My initial posting was not intended to denegrate the Beatles in any way, shape or form. I am a big fan myself and their writings were inspired.

However, they have received more than their fair share of credit for the birth of British pop music and I think it's only fair that the balance is redressed in favour of Hank. Bruce, Tony and Jet who were creating the new phenomenon of a four piece compact combo capable of providing backing and music in their own right without the use of session men.

As Bruce mentions in his book, they were having to make it up as they went along as it had not been done before.

Somebody posted on ShadowMusic (in one of its incarnations) a list of Shadows 'firsts' - it might be time to re publish this list to remind ourselves and others just how ground breaking they were and just how under-rated this band has become by the general population over the years.

Kind regards to all.

[Iain Purdon]

Trouble is, so many TV producers are very young, don't know their history and so don't know what questions to ask. And when you tell them they get irked and think you're an old fart... (On that front, of course, they're dead right!)

[JimN]

And didn't Brian Epstein take the Beatles to see The Shadows to see how it was done !!

Bob T

This often quoted as an example of the Epstein management style, and may even have been in Brian's "A Cellarful Of Noise" autobiography.

But I am starting to doubt it. I don't think it can be true unless one or more parallel facts about the Beatles have been reported wrongly.

Fact No 1: Brian Epstein and The Beatles commenced their association in September 1961.

Fact No 2: By October 1962, they had a record out on Parlophone and were making local TV appearances in the north of England - significantly, dressed in the smart suits which Epstein had urged them to adopt, apparently taking them to see the Shadows at the Liverpool Empire. Cliff Richard (who surely would have been mentioned had he been there) is never mentioned.

Fact No 3: The Shadows appeared as a headline act at the Empire only once between September 1961 and October 1962, and that was in the week (Mon - Fri) commencing Monday 23rd April (Shakespeare's Birthday).

Fact No 4: The Beatles were playing a seven week residency at the Star Club, Hamburg, between 11th April and 31st May 1962, with only one night off (which was not spent back in Liverpool). So they couildn't have gone to see The Shadows in their only headline appearance in Liverpool over the relevant period.

This is a great disappointment to me. I and my younger brother were at the Empire Theatre on Tuesday 24th April. Early on, he looked up at a theatre box and said he thought that The Shadows were watching the other acts from it. Certainly, there was a group of young men in that box, one wearing glasses. They stayed there while The Shadows performed, blowing the original theory out of the water. But in later years, the Beatles watching The Shadows at The Empire became such a powerful image that I talked myself into believing that it must have happened on that last Tuesday in April 1962...

JN

[RayL]

The programme that triggered this thread was, I think, one of a series that has been showing on the Yesterday channel on Freeview. It's the usual compilation of library clips with The Beatles used as a linking device. The reason for using The Beatles is undoubtedly that many aspects of their career in the sixties matched the mood and events of the time (swinging London, peace movement reacting to the Vietnam war, etc). However, it's a measure of the programme's budget (or restrictions by McCartney/Starr) that despite many images of the Fab Four, none of their music is used.

The changes and upheavals that made 'The Sixties' so different from any previous decade did not start on the dot of 1st January 1960 (or even 1st January 1961 if you start your decades using the other convention). They happened (as Philip Larkin put it in Annus Mirabilis although he was talking jokily about sexual intercourse) 'Between the end of the Chatterley ban And the Beatles' first LP'. Films like The Party's Over (made in 1962 but not released until 1965 after cuts by by the censor) were probing the new freedoms and the drabness of the 1950s was at last beginning to disappear.

In those years (1960 - 1963) Cliff and the Shadows were already established 'show biz' artists. They were doing long runs in pantomime, making family-viewing movies and the early 'rawness' of their music was already toned down as they became part of the musical mainstream.

So the programme's use of The Beatles as a metaphor for the beginning of 'the sixties' wasn't so far off the mark after all.

Ray

[chronikman-ch]

This is a great disappointment to me. I and my younger brother were at the Empire Theatre on Tuesday 24th April. Early on, he looked up at a theatre box and said he thought that The Shadows were watching the other acts from it. Certainly, there was a group of young men in that box, one wearing glasses. They stayed there while The Shadows performed, blowing the original theory out of the water. But in later years, the Beatles watching The Shadows at The Empire became such a powerful image that I talked myself into believing that it must have happened on that last Tuesday iun April 1962...

From my dates collection
Tuesday 24. April 1962

The Shadows at the Liverpool Empire, supported by Frank Ifield and Jackie Trent (neither of whom had had hits) and Chas McDevitt (who was already yesterday's news). The Shadows did seven tunes and only two of them were hits (Wonderful Land and FBI). They received an ecstatic reception and yet they didn't do Apache and were only on stage for 25 minutes. It shows how easily satisfied we were back then. If the star turn only did 25 minutes today, there would be a riot. (BBC Home)

- also with: Frank Ifield-Chas McDevitt & Shirley Douglas-Jim Dailey & Terry Wayne-Joe Black-Jackie Trent-Clarkson and Leslie-Pan Yue Jen Troupe

- NME # 798 Article: 27.April 1962 (Bruce Ill at the Blackpool concert 22.April 1962)
During this show, Bruce Welch collapsed on stage and could not continue. A septic throat was diagnosed. Welch was send back to London, unable to fulfil a week in variety at LIverpool Empire this week.
His temporary replacement is Peter Carter, a guitarist who led the original Checkmates. Welch expects to appear at Petersborough Embassy on Sunday 29. April 1962

Heinz

[JimN]

It's funny how the memory works. I actually have a pdf copy of the programme from that week at the Liverpool Empire, as well as a jpg of the theatre poster (easily available on the web).

I clearly remember the show starting with the (Chinese acrobatic) Pan Yue Jen Troupe. This was an absolute variety convention, on TV as well as in live theatre of the day. I also recall the comedy duo Daley and Wayne, who often worked with Cliff and The Shadows in subsequent years, as well as Frank Ifield, who would have a massive hit a couple of months later with I Remember You (and many more after that). I certainly also remember the cabaret-style duo of Chas McDevitt and Shirley Douglas, doing their act astride two tall stools, each sporting a red Fender, he a Strat and she a Precision Bass. I can recall one of the songs they did: Tell Me what You Told My Daddy Last Night.

But of Jackie Trent (then still several years away from her hit), 'Clarkson and Leslie' and Joe Black, I remember absolutely nothing.

I wouldn't have been able to say how many songs The Shadows played, but I can confirm that they did not include Apache. The group was featuring Licorice Locking in his first live appearances with The Shadows, and Peter Carter on rhythm guitar that week. They started with Midnight and and featured FBI and Wonderful Land. Additionally, they played Little B (complete with the Latin American percussion bit) and Stand Up And Say That with Hank playing a white-painted grand piano. I can't recall any vocals.

I wish I'd made notes. But I'd have probably lost them between then and now...

JN

[alewis41]

...

In those years (1960 - 1963) Cliff and the Shadows were already established 'show biz' artists. They were doing long runs in pantomime, making family-viewing movies and the early 'rawness' of their music was already toned down as they became part of the musical mainstream.

So the programme's use of The Beatles as a metaphor for the beginning of 'the sixties' wasn't so far off the mark after all.

Ray

Agreed. Whatever you say about the Shadows, they did not drive the culture of the time like the Beatles did. And to a comment in the very first message in this thread - The Beatles were one of the first bands to write their own material.

[Tab]

But not THE first as stated