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This is probably a question (for the experts) that has been asked before, but I must have missed it. So, here it is:
on the Dance With the Shadows LP, which songs were played on the Strat and which on the Burns?

Cheers,
Bojan

Anybody?

The problem is that there is conflicting evidence as to when Burns guitars were first used in the studio.

There are two versions: the official version ("Not until Flingel Bunt") and the unofficial version ("thirty prototypes, some of them tested in the studio").

So, let's say we stick to the official version (after Flingel Bunt), then which of those songs were recorded before FB and which ones were recorded after ? Is that info available?

Bojan

Interesting question. Here are some thoughts.

I read George Geddes's booklet on Burns Marvins again with interest. In particular the section of the Fender / Marvin transition where he goes into some detail and confirms it took 2 years. As mentioned in Paul Day's book and Barry Gibson's site: According to Hank, around 30 prototypes of the new model were assembled before the guitar finally met with his approval. "The 24 months of waiting was a nuisance but it all seemed worthwhile when we first began to use them," Marvin told the readers of his Beat Monthly column.

That works out at a prototype every 24 days........!

Given the importance / fame of The Shads and the simplicity of the brief 'to produce a Strat clone'(!?!), I would assume that Jim would have jumped-to and had the first prototype in Hank's hands as quickly as it was possible to ensure Hank did not change his mind. With this in mind, the only real design challenge would be to engineer a vibrato that was stable, offered easy string changing and avoided the Fender's patents. Having completed a number of vibrato designs including the design of the 4 pickup Bison in December 1961, this would have been a relatively simple challenge for Jim and his team/suppliers.

George tells me he has seen a picture of a Marvin 'plank with no embellishment' but has no knowledge of its dates. Do you know of anyone who has any detail of the Marvin development project or a possible timeline? Do you know the dates of the design registration applications for the neck and vibrato numbers 917831&2 mentioned in Paul Day's book?

My experience of new product development and design management would suggest a project of this nature establishes the basics fairly quickly with most of the time taken with the toing and froing the various prototypes while the design detail and cosmetics are resolved. Paul Day and George identify some of the detailed developments:
- the subsequent addition of the small scratchplate to the upper bout
- changing the 3 way switch to a 5 way
- the subsequent addition of the hand-rest on the vibrato
- a larger black rear surround
- changes to the engraving
- a wider neck
- the scroll headstock
- the addition of an extra fret
Per claims the early examples had a rotary switch. And I heard somewhere that Hank had the scratchplate moved nearer the bridge to give a brighter sound, while Bruce had his vibrato screwed down for stability.

The point of listing the above is that the fundamental changes that would effect the 'sound' are not reported and given the simplicity of Hank's brief to Jim 'produce a Strat clone' I would not have expected anything of significance. As a consequence, I suggest Jim would have supplied a very playable guitar early in the two year development programme. If this was the case, Hank's first response would have been to try it through an AC30 and test it in the studio, even though it was not ready for stage-work and presentation to the public!

This takes me to the nub of my question: why did The Shads first and second LPs sound so different? Could tracks such as The Rumble & South of The Border on Out of The Shadows (that were recorded in April & May of 1962) have been played on a first, second, third or fourth generation Burns Marvin prototypes?

No doubt some of you will have some insight that sinks this hypothesis……….

The sound difference between first and second Shadows albums always intrigues me. I am anxiously waiting comments on this.

Regards
Selim

Bojan wrote:So, let's say we stick to the official version (after Flingel Bunt), then which of those songs were recorded before FB and which ones were recorded after ? Is that info available?

According to the late Roberto Pistolesi, based on his research at the EMI archives, 13 of the 14 tracks on DWTS were recorded between 1st of august 1963 (Blues Shadows) and the 25th february 1964 (Big B). (Rise & Fall was recorded at the same session as Big B on the 25th february).
The remaining track (Zambesi) was also originally recorded before Rise & Fall on the 18th february – but a re-make is listed to have taken place 10 days later on the 28th february.

In addition to Harry’s interesting thoughts I can add that I have it (in writing) from Barry Gibson of Burns that he has in his possion an early Marvin (didn’s state if it’s a proto or production model) with rotary switch for PU selection. More interestingly IMO, he also has 2 other early Marvins which switches the PU's in series instead of the more common (and later standard marvin) parallel PU config. Pickups wired in series sounds different than parallel PU’s and would influence the voice of the instrument.

sbozok wrote:The sound difference between first and second Shadows albums always intrigues me. I am anxiously waiting comments on this.

Regards
Selim

Although there is a discussion to be had regarding the introduction of the Burns guitar around this stage the main difference in the change of sound must in my view be down to the top boost Vox.

petercreasey wrote:

sbozok wrote:The sound difference between first and second Shadows albums always intrigues me. I am anxiously waiting comments on this.

Regards
Selim

Although there is a discussion to be had regarding the introduction of the Burns guitar around this stage the main difference in the change of sound must in my view be down to the top boost Vox.

Did the transition to the Top Boost coincide (more or less) with the introduction of the Burns?

Bojan wrote:Did the transition to the Top Boost coincide (more or less) with the introduction of the Burns?

No... the AC30's top-boost unit was fitted to Hank's amplifier at least as early as the first half of 1961 (as evidenced by the content of the book "The Shadows - By Themselves").

The Burns project was underway by about May 1962 (when The Shadows mentioned during a television programme* that they were having a guitar designed to their own specifications), but there's no real evidence that they were thinking of this in 1961. Indeed, the group only swapped to the all-red Fender line-up in the spring of that year, with Bruce adopting the Stratocaster for the first time.

[* The television programme was Associated-Rediffusion's "Dan Farson Meets The Shadows".]