Thoughts about Marvin, Welch & Farrar

[Pedro]

I think that we can agree that the Shadows were the greatest instrumental group of all time. They are legendary; their haunting sound still brings chills when you listen to it. They were for instrumental music what the Beatles were for vocal group music. They have achieved greatness. Period. That is why this forum and others are devoted to them. I have absolutely nothing against MWF, but the fact is, I never heard of them until recently. First of all, I don't live in the UK and I had very little opportunity to listen to them. By the time they started performing, there were many, many similar groups, many of them far more popular and probably more interesting. MWF were no longer leaders, pioneers of music, they were followers of a trend created in the wake of the Beatles and the "British Invasion." So, they can never be compared to the early Shadows, even though individually, I'm sure that both Hank and Bruce had become more accomplished guitarists and vocalists, and John Farrar was a high quality artist and very talented musician in his own right, not to mention prolific songwriter. But they simply cannot compare to the fame and glory of the Shadows. Remember, I am speaking from the point of view of a foreigner. It turns out that the highlight of their career, at least as far as I am concerned, was the Eurovision song contest. People living in the UK probably see things differently. But let's not forget, the early Shadows had an unsurpassed energy and originality that later even they themselves lost. Listening to later Shadows is just not as exhilarating and thrilling as listening to the early Shadows. That is the same with MWF.

In a way, it's like Hank today. If he held a concert in which he played Django Reinhard music with his gypsy jazz band, I'm sure that many people would attend the concert, but there's no chance that he would keep filling huge concert halls day after day. Hank Marvin is a legend, but he is not a gypsy jazz legend. There are many guitarists that are much better in that particular music genre than he is, and I would have very little interest in listening to Hank play gypsy jazz (except for the fact the he is Hank! ). But for the early Shadows instrumentals Hank is what Django is for gypsy jazz. A legend, a guitar god, and an inspiration to hundreds and thousands, many of them famous guitarists. As part of MWF, I am simply not sure that he inspired anyone ... that is the difference.

This is just my opinion. I don't mean to ruffle any feathers or demean anything or anyone, and I don't wish to hurt anyone's feelings.

Cheers,
Bojan

Well said. Couldn't have put it better.

[baldrick57]

If I remember rightly MWF album Second Opinion was voted the best album of the year (1971 or 72?) within the industry itself , whether it was for the content or production Im not sure. Yes it was a frustrating time for the band and fans alike but they got the balance right when they toured prior to Eurovision with a good mixture of Shads/MWF material which showed off their many talents! In hindsight they may have wished they had done that in the first place then the new material which was often excellent might have been more successful commercially!

[David Martin]

I think that we can agree that the Shadows were the greatest instrumental group of all time. They are legendary; their haunting sound still brings chills when you listen to it. They were for instrumental music what the Beatles were for vocal group music. They have achieved greatness. Period. That is why this forum and others are devoted to them. I have absolutely nothing against MWF, but the fact is, I never heard of them until recently. First of all, I don't live in the UK and I had very little opportunity to listen to them. By the time they started performing, there were many, many similar groups, many of them far more popular and probably more interesting. MWF were no longer leaders, pioneers of music, they were followers of a trend created in the wake of the Beatles and the "British Invasion." So, they can never be compared to the early Shadows, even though individually, I'm sure that both Hank and Bruce had become more accomplished guitarists and vocalists, and John Farrar was a high quality artist and very talented musician in his own right, not to mention prolific songwriter. But they simply cannot compare to the fame and glory of the Shadows. Remember, I am speaking from the point of view of a foreigner. It turns out that the highlight of their career, at least as far as I am concerned, was the Eurovision song contest. People living in the UK probably see things differently. But let's not forget, the early Shadows had an unsurpassed energy and originality that later even they themselves lost. Listening to later Shadows is just not as exhilarating and thrilling as listening to the early Shadows. That is the same with MWF.

In a way, it's like Hank today. If he held a concert in which he played Django Reinhard music with his gypsy jazz band, I'm sure that many people would attend the concert, but there's no chance that he would keep filling huge concert halls day after day. Hank Marvin is a legend, but he is not a gypsy jazz legend. There are many guitarists that are much better in that particular music genre than he is, and I would have very little interest in listening to Hank play gypsy jazz (except for the fact the he is Hank! ). But for the early Shadows instrumentals Hank is what Django is for gypsy jazz. A legend, a guitar god, and an inspiration to hundreds and thousands, many of them famous guitarists. As part of MWF, I am simply not sure that he inspired anyone ... that is the difference.

This is just my opinion. I don't mean to ruffle any feathers or demean anything or anyone, and I don't wish to hurt anyone's feelings.

Cheers,
Bojan

Spot on... beautifully expressed...

[Stratstroker]

I was living-in at college when the first MWF album was released. I bought it, played it loud in the dorm, and thought it was fantastic! So did all the other students. They borrowed it to the extent that it is the only vinyl I ever owned that got totally worn out, and I had to buy another. At least one other guy tried to buy his own copy at the time but couldn't get hold of one!

If EMI had not seriously underestimated the demand for it it may well have been a big hit and everything that followed may have been different.

MW & F were, in my opinion, absolutely brilliant, and I only wish we could have had more albums from them.

Al

[nick.nivram]

I thought the Marvin Welch and Farrar period was just what the participants needed at that time to keep up their remarkable skills of song writing, musicianship and recording but this time unfettered by the demands of record companies and the public. I personally love these songs, especially Bruce's role in the project. I feel he has the most beautiful singing voice and ear for melody and harmony. His voice has improved as the years go by (remember 'Dialogue' at a recent Shadowmania) and he was unsurpassed by anyone on the final tour concert. His vocal quality in 'Faithful' and most importantly 'Far away, falling' makes him for me one of the best singers I have ever heard, ever. His guitar playing and musicianship are already unsurpassed. Also one of the best things to come out of the MWF period was the production that then manifested itself in Cliff's most important later albums, 'I'm nearly Famous', 'Every face tells a story' and 'Green Light' (GL is my personal favourite album which will go with me to a desert island) - yet again the great Bruce Welch. This man is a huge hero of british music. Yes, Hank and Brian have made their marks in music history but Bruce outshines them all for me.

I know Bruce always says how influential John Farrar was in all aspects of the MWF albums and I don't doubt that for a minute but I can see the knock-on effect vocally with the backing vocals of Rivers, Perry and Calver and the sophistication of arrangements thereafter as well as the way ahead of its time production of those Cliff albums. All Bruce.

The MWF albums are priceless and show how talented all these people are. I also feel the words of the songs are very witty, full of social comment not touched upon at the time yet subjects which affect us still today (Who was 'Ronnie' and what became of him? sounds too real to be fabricated) and maybe trickier subjects like abject loneliness and ending it all.

"I've erected a wall and I'll never now fall and I'm deaf to the sound of all others...
I have no sisters or brothers but I can feel.....me.....falling.....down................."

Utterly beautiful music (and words) that is true to itself and is still selling today.

All this is my personal opinion

Nick

[flingelbunt]

Spot on Nick- I absolutely agree with you- and also about 'Green Light'- musical production and choice of songs of the highest order!!

Maurice
'Bungleflint'

[geronimo7476]

I love this thread! Marvin, Welch and Farrar were surely one of the most underated groups ever. One of the most brilliant songs ever written and sung by them is Faithful. The production was simply out of this world! I remember playing an instrumental version of Faithful at Shadowmania on the Friday night get-together, and afterwards very briefly spoke with Bruce about the album and he said that the whole album, including Faithful was recorded on an eight track tape recorder. Unbelievable quality and speaks volumes about the 'Production team' Marvin, Welch and Farrar! Bruce has never settled for second best, he has proved that, throughout his career as a musician, writer and producer and I believe that he played a major part in the production of these two brilliant albums!

As a tribute to MW&F I would like to repost my instrumental version of 'Faithful' on the 'Sounds' section.

Long live the Shadows, MW&F included,

Cheers CC

[alewis41]

Some good comments, no-one has mentioned directly how bold a move this was... By the end of the 60's/beginning of the 70's the Shads seemed burned-out, having produced arguably their two weakest ever albums Shades of Rock and Live in Japan, they'd done Panto(!), appeared on TV wearing dinner jackets and were completely out of sync with the music and culture of the time. They could have stayed there for ever, turning out the occasional album and living on past glories, but Hank and Bruce weren't satisfied with that, which I think is to their great credit.

They then recruited John Farrar, who was completely unknown in the UK, wrote and produced some fantastic contemporary songs (disagree completely with Didier when he says they weren't original or "provoking") went back to playing small clubs and tried to get their music across. Hank and Bruce simply did not need to do this (being wealthy guys already) and that's why it is particularly unfortunate that they weren't successful.

Of course all this led to many other events which were momentus in the music industry - Bruce producing Cliff and Olivia (who became a mega-star in the U.S.) and many others, John Rostill writing huge hits for Olivia, Alan Tarney writing for, then producing Cliff and many others, John Farrar writing for and producing Olivia...This is all in addition to the Shads getting back together and producing perhaps their best ever album (Rockin'...), Eurovision etc. So the fallout was huge, even if they were ultimately unsuccessful. I know that it bothered John Farrar a lot at the time that they couldn't get their music across, but it did lead to his great success in the U.S. - I'm not sure it is always appreciated in the UK that he was considered one of the top producers in the business during the late '70's and early 80's and is now thought of as a songwriting and producing legend.

I liked the music at the time, but it was only when I first heard it on CD, around 20 years ago, that I realized how fantastic it was, particularly the unfairly maligned M&F album. Very interesting to read that it was recorded on 8-track! Like Ecca I still listen to it all the time, still find new depths in the music. It's great to read that others love it too. Actually for me, the instrumental hits are great but the legacy of the Shadows will always be MWF. It's fine if I'm the only person in the world who feels that way - Their music has always been obscure and it's been a secret joy and privilege to have listened to it and enjoyed it for 40 years.

[StuartD]

Some good comments, no-one has mentioned directly how bold a move this was... By the end of the 60's/beginning of the 70's the Shads seemed burned-out, having produced arguably their two weakest ever albums Shades of Rock and Live in Japan, they'd done Panto(!), appeared on TV wearing dinner jackets and were completely out of sync with the music and culture of the time. They could have stayed there for ever, turning out the occasional album and living on past glories, but Hank and Bruce weren't satisfied with that, which I think is to their great credit.

They then recruited John Farrar, who was completely unknown in the UK, wrote and produced some fantastic contemporary songs (disagree completely with Didier when he says they weren't original or "provoking") went back to playing small clubs and tried to get their music across. Hank and Bruce simply did not need to do this (being wealthy guys already) and that's why it is particularly unfortunate that they weren't successful.

Of course all this led to many other events which were momentus in the music industry - Bruce producing Cliff and Olivia (who became a mega-star in the U.S.) and many others, John Rostill writing huge hits for Olivia, Alan Tarney writing for, then producing Cliff and many others, John Farrar writing for and producing Olivia...This is all in addition to the Shads getting back together and producing perhaps their best ever album (Rockin'...), Eurovision etc. So the fallout was huge, even if they were ultimately unsuccessful. I know that it bothered John Farrar a lot at the time that they couldn't get their music across, but it did lead to his great success in the U.S. - I'm not sure it is always appreciated in the UK that he was considered one of the top producers in the business during the late '70's and early 80's and is now thought of as a songwriting and producing legend.

I liked the music at the time, but it was only when I first heard it on CD, around 20 years ago, that I realized how fantastic it was, particularly the unfairly maligned M&F album. Very interesting to read that it was recorded on 8-track! Like Ecca I still listen to it all the time, still find new depths in the music. It's great to read that others love it too. Actually for me, the instrumental hits are great but the legacy of the Shadows will always be MWF. It's fine if I'm the only person in the world who feels that way - Their music has always been obscure and it's been a secret joy and privilege to have listened to it and enjoyed it for 40 years.

Couldn't agree more!! This is the best post on this subject. WE underestimate the importance of MWF in the later scheme of things. There probably would not have been the great stuff from Cliff and Olivia if Hank and Bruce hadn't enlisted John Farrar. It was his harmonies that they used and his guitar playing certainly stretched Hank - he would be the first to confim this. The songs were brilliant and it was indeed a very brave move at the time.

Regards

Stuart

[Moderne]

Some good comments, no-one has mentioned directly how bold a move this was... By the end of the 60's/beginning of the 70's the Shads seemed burned-out, having produced arguably their two weakest ever albums Shades of Rock and Live in Japan, they'd done Panto(!), appeared on TV wearing dinner jackets and were completely out of sync with the music and culture of the time. They could have stayed there for ever, turning out the occasional album and living on past glories, but Hank and Bruce weren't satisfied with that, which I think is to their great credit.

They then recruited John Farrar, who was completely unknown in the UK, wrote and produced some fantastic contemporary songs (disagree completely with Didier when he says they weren't original or "provoking") went back to playing small clubs and tried to get their music across. Hank and Bruce simply did not need to do this (being wealthy guys already) and that's why it is particularly unfortunate that they weren't successful.

Of course all this led to many other events which were momentus in the music industry - Bruce producing Cliff and Olivia (who became a mega-star in the U.S.) and many others, John Rostill writing huge hits for Olivia, Alan Tarney writing for, then producing Cliff and many others, John Farrar writing for and producing Olivia...This is all in addition to the Shads getting back together and producing perhaps their best ever album (Rockin'...), Eurovision etc. So the fallout was huge, even if they were ultimately unsuccessful. I know that it bothered John Farrar a lot at the time that they couldn't get their music across, but it did lead to his great success in the U.S. - I'm not sure it is always appreciated in the UK that he was considered one of the top producers in the business during the late '70's and early 80's and is now thought of as a songwriting and producing legend.

I liked the music at the time, but it was only when I first heard it on CD, around 20 years ago, that I realized how fantastic it was, particularly the unfairly maligned M&F album. Very interesting to read that it was recorded on 8-track! Like Ecca I still listen to it all the time, still find new depths in the music. It's great to read that others love it too. Actually for me, the instrumental hits are great but the legacy of the Shadows will always be MWF. It's fine if I'm the only person in the world who feels that way - Their music has always been obscure and it's been a secret joy and privilege to have listened to it and enjoyed it for 40 years.

I totally agree - except that I quite like Shades of Rock!! I feel intensely proud of The Shadows, and creatively I feel that MWF is their proudest achievement. Much as I love the early classic hits I'm still baffled that for so many fans it's all about 'that sound' - and everything else seems to be of comparatively little interest. How innovative and influential a type of music might be isn't necessarily proportional to its quality.