That Early Shadows Sound

The Shadows, their music, their members and Shadows-related activity by former members of this community

Re: That Early Shadows Sound

Postby JimN » 21 Aug 2010, 22:42

RayL wrote:Just to get it clear with regard to those two early Beatles albums, is it being suggested here that the stereo versions were issued on vinyl at the same time as the mono versions?


More or less (maybe a few weeks' delay - absolutely no more than that).

I can remember the Liverpool Echo's record reviewer - who rejoiced in the by-line "Disker" - reviewing the stereo pressing of "With The Beatles" some time in very early 1964. He mentioned the "extra depth" on the guitar solo for All My Loving. At the time, never having heard stereo, I didn't know what he meant - I now realise he must have been referring to the reverb on the "other" channel.

The reason I ask is because when George Martin was interviewed for the radio programme The Record Producers he stated very clearly that he recorded those albums "in two track, not stereo" with the voices on one track and the rhythm on the other with the aim of compressing them together to make "a harder sound" (his words) for mono release.


Yes - that has long been his position.

On a separate recording (I think it's a programme about Abbey Road, but I'd have to look through my cassette collection to find it), it is explained that when EMI wanted to make stereo versions of those early albums, George had already left EMI to go to independent at Air Studios. Back at EMI, they got out the two-track tape, listened to it and said to themselves "Well, if a producer as prestigious as George Martin recorded the tape in this way, that must be how he intended the stereo to be". They didn''t ask George, otherwise he would have put them straight.


No.

George Martin was working at EMI until the later sixties (certainly until after "Sgt Pepper").

The stereo LPs were DEFINITELY released at the same time as or not long after the initial mono releases, and whilst George was still at EMI/Parlophone.

By the time George did get to hear these 'stereo' albums it was too late, of course, and now they are accepted as the 'true' version. However, from George's own lips, these two-track recordings were never intended to be used as they were for a stereo album.


I too have read that (it's in his autobiography).

As is sometimes the case with all sorts of people, he remembers - or at least, recites - it differently from how it actually was.

Why that would be, I don't know. But it is so.

Luckily, we are talking at the moment about the group who are more authoritatively documented than any other, and it is trivially easy to prove what I say about stereo release dates. Some stereo Beatles releases were even on the early sixties type Parlophone label (predating the full 1962/1963 transition from the "old" to the "homogenised" label design).

Google returns:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Please_Please_Me
http://meltingpot.fortunecity.com/kirkland/266/btls/uk/uklp.htm

JN
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Re: That Early Shadows Sound

Postby Didier » 22 Aug 2010, 09:16

JimN wrote:Luckily, we are talking at the moment about the group who are more authoritatively documented than any other, and it is trivially easy to prove what I say about stereo release dates. Some stereo Beatles releases were even on the early sixties type Parlophone label (predating the full 1962/1963 transition from the "old" to the "homogenised" label design).

Google returns:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Please_Please_Me
http://meltingpot.fortunecity.com/kirkland/266/btls/uk/uklp.htm

JN

Hi Jim,

Intersting quote :
Please Please Me was recorded on a two-track BTR tape recording machine, with most of the instrumentation on one track and the vocals on the other, allowing for a better balance between the two on the final quarter-inch tape mix-down in mono.[15] A stereo mix was made at the same time as the mono mix, with one track on the left channel and the other on the right, as well as an added layer of reverb to better blend the two tracks together. This was common practice for playback on stereo consoles.
I only knew about the first part "mix-down in mono".
Obviously, Capitol USA, and EMI France were supplied master copies of the mono mix only, so Capitol made their own stereo release with mock stereo, and EMI France released it in mono only (no one used mock stereo in France).

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Re: That Early Shadows Sound

Postby Martin Page » 22 Aug 2010, 10:46

RayL wrote:Just to get it clear with regard to those two early Beatles albums, is it being suggested here that the stereo versions were issued on vinyl at the same time as the mono versions?

Ray

The book, The Complete Beatles Recording Sessions says that both the mono and stereo versions of the first two albums were released the same day: Please Please Me - 22nd March 1963 and With The Beatles - 22nd November 1963.

Regards, Martin.
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Re: That Early Shadows Sound

Postby Didier » 22 Aug 2010, 12:20

Another interesting quote :
at 10:00 am on Monday, 11 February 1963, the Beatles and George Martin started recording what was essentially their live act in 1963, and finished 585 minutes later (9 hours and 45 minutes). In three sessions that day (each lasting approximately three hours) they produced an authentic representation of the band's Cavern Club-era sound, as there were very few overdubs and edits. Optimistically, only two sessions were originally booked by Martin—the evening session was added later.
...
The whole day's session cost around £400. George Martin said: "There wasn't a lot of money at Parlophone. I was working to an annual budget of £55,000." This budget had to cover all of the artists on Martin's roster.


Obviously, George Marin couldn't afford to make sepate takes fo stereo and mono releases, as it was the case for the Shadows.
With only 2 tracks recorders available at this time, there wasn't many possibilities left...

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Re: That Early Shadows Sound

Postby JimN » 22 Aug 2010, 12:33

Didier wrote:The whole day's session cost around £400. George Martin said: "There wasn't a lot of money at Parlophone. I was working to an annual budget of £55,000." This budget had to cover all of the artists on Martin's roster.[/i]

Obviously, George Marin couldn't afford to make sepate takes fo stereo and mono releases, as it was the case for the Shadows.
With only 2 tracks recorders available at this time, there wasn't many possibilities left...

Didier


There are a few, and only a few, Cliff Richard and The Shadows tracks which feature different takes on the stereo and mono releases. Off hand, I can't think of a single Shadows track to which that applies. For every Shads track which was released on stereo and in mono, the performance is the same (though sometimes, an overdub is missing for one of them).

Malcolm Addey explains that two recordings (on two machines) would usually be made simultaneously: stereo to two track and "delta mono".

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Re: That Early Shadows Sound

Postby Picker » 23 Aug 2010, 09:19

Hi just a sugestion about Stereo and Mono being the same on the Old Cliff and the Shadows albums, I seem to hear a difference in what Hank plays
particularly on a track called "The Snake and the Bookworm" cant remember which album that was on ?
I bet I'm wromg on this one two.
Rob.
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Re: That Early Shadows Sound

Postby EJK » 23 Aug 2010, 11:16

A great thread!

Don't forget that the "early sound" had a lot to do with Jet Harris and Tony Meehan. Not only did their "sound" differ from what came after them but just as important was their style of play which, when added to Bruce Welch's excellent rhythm guitar work made for a wonderfully vibrant rhythm section.
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Re: That Early Shadows Sound

Postby chas » 23 Aug 2010, 14:47

Picker wrote:Hi just a sugestion about Stereo and Mono being the same on the Old Cliff and the Shadows albums, I seem to hear a difference in what Hank plays
particularly on a track called "The Snake and the Bookworm" cant remember which album that was on ?
I bet I'm wromg on this one two.
Rob.


Jim did say there are a few Cliff numbers that are different, so you're probably correct. One I'm familiar with is True Love Will Come To You - the mono version is the better one (imho), both overall and also the solo goes round twice.

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Re: That Early Shadows Sound

Postby TributeShadow » 23 Aug 2010, 15:04

Any opinions on Roberto Pistolesis theory that Hank would have use a Gretsch on the early recordings? :shock:

Regards,
Patrik
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Re: That Early Shadows Sound

Postby Stratpicker » 23 Aug 2010, 15:12

Oh No!!!!! :shock:
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