Apache minus Bruce - discussion topic

[Martyn]

In a separate thread Dave R. rightly suggested that Bruce's rhythm acoustic guitar parts were a major component of 'that sound' on the original recordings and I concurred with all he said. I then mentioned a recording where someone's removed Bruce's playing from Apache and inferred there are one or two playing errors by Jet and Hank that maybe weren't spotted because Bruce's guitar had effectively masked them. It was suggested I post this recording in a separate thread.
I believe I can hear one or two really minor mis-hits by Hank and some odd incorrect notes by Jet, but please don't shoot the messenger - these are extremely minor 'errors' I believe I can hear and maybe you will disagree - hence the topic title.
I don't want to become too obsessive (or encourage similar actions in others) about any alleged errors and wouldn't have started this thread had someone not asked me to post the track. I leave you to form any opinions you may from the recording.

http://www.4shared.com/audio/2zuFCur8/A ... Bruce.html

The reason I originally filed this recording away was because I felt some echo unit patches designated for Apache weren't quite correct to my ears and by removing Bruce's part it's easier to hear slightly more clearly the echo tails on Hank's playing. Could be my lugholes aren't doing their job properly but I'm fairly certain the echo patterns on this original recording do differ subtly from some patches I've heard. The only Apache echo I ever felt was spot on was demonstrated to me by Justin Daish on his Meazzi (would make sense) at our club one day, when he played bits of Apache without any backing. His machine's echoes were, in my opinion, exactly correct and they do differ from my own echo unit's versions. Just my opinion so I'll leave it there.

Regards,
Martyn

[abstamaria]

Martyn, thank you for that. That is a very useful learning tool.

Best,

Andy

[noelford]

For me, it wasn't those minor fluffs that made that recording interesting (Heaven forfend my own playing should ever be the subject of such scrutiny!), but how sterile and lifeless it sounds without that dynamic rhythm guitar.

[iefje]

Back in 1992, there was a CD release on the controversial Italian label Fremus, called "Apache - The Classic Collection". It contained sixteen tracks from 1959 to 1962 and had all of its right hand channels removed from the stereo image. This meant that most tracks omitted Bruce's rhythm guitar, because with most tracks, it was located on the right. It made interesting listening, but the whole CD was just a perversion of the original implementation of the sixteen tracks.

You could have easily turned off the right hand channel yourself of course, by using the pan or balance knob on your home audio system. I used to do that quite often with The Shadows' stereo tracks, under headphones. Some of the classics have an orchestral accompaniment, which on tracks like "The Miracle" and "The Windjammer" are located on one side of the stereo image. By turning off that channel, you can listen almost exclusively to The Shadows' basic track. I say 'almost', because apart from the orchestral overdub, another overdub, for instance a second lead and/or rhythm guitar or percussion instrument has been added to the turned off channel.

[abstamaria]

A good friend to whom I sent the link writes:

"Marvin missed at least 2 notes. And I was surprised that Jet played a chromatic bass line (as a jazz player would) that is not the norm for this style of music.
Minor stuff. I'd rather hear things like that instead of the almost lifeless results that come out of pop music from LA. They use click tracks to keep everyone in sync."

Using the poor audio on my laptop as an excuse, I didn't catch any of that. There's more to Apache apparently than meets the ear.

[Paul Creasey]

The thing that I like about this thread, is that it may just be dawning on some that "That Sound" is to do with rather more that just the Lead Guitar!
...........................and, that our Heroes ARE human and do "fluff" from time-to-time. This, surely, contributes to the "character" of their large body of work over the years. As Noel says, far better than "strerile and lifeless"!!!

Regards
Paul

[Rosemary]

Hi Martyn
Thanks for posting as it's a very interesting file. I didn't hear any obvious mistakes but it made me realise I've still got the gallop all wrong so it's very useful for study.
Best wishes
Rosemary

[iefje]

In my humble opinion, the musical quality of "Apache" and the other classic hits is way up higher than the present, dare I say it, X-Factor- and Idols-dumpstertruck 'music' (nothing personal ).

[captainhaddock]

When Apache was new, I doubt that anyones audio reproducing equipment was of a sufficent quality to notice much wrong at all. I would bet that most people listened to it in Mono. I know that we didn't have Stereo at home until about 1974 and it wasn't until much later that with the assistance of headphones, I was able to hear the fluffs and studio banter that has been wiped from CD's.
It is now 51 years old, Apache still sounds great to me and always will.

[Martyn]

As has been rightly said, it does make the whole track extremely lifeless without the rhythm component, which is to be expected since it's such an important component of the overall sound, but I was surprised at how dull the remaining bass and drums sounded, although I'm not sure if any of this is due to the process involved in removing the rhythm part - maybe those with greater technical knowledge could clarify this thought. Hank's guitar tone remains pretty unique to him and that doesn't appear to have suffered in similar ways during the extraction procedure.

I was being very picky regarding the possible playing errors but I mentioned it purely because I'd not spotted them when the rhythm guitar was still present and in fact find it rather encouraging that even the experts aren't immune to the odd minor duffed note - certainly makes me feel better about my own playing issues . . . .

I'd be interested to hear if others feel similarly about the echo tails on the original differing in pattern from those generally programmed into modern echo units. Others may wonder if it's even vaguely important to ask but I do occasionally become intrigued by a little of the mystique surrounding this classic tune, in particular.

Cheers,
Martyn