The Ventures and the Shadows, perhaps a difference?

[Bluesnote]

I remember I was equally shocked when I found out in that one of my favourite bands(Steely Dan) guitar solo's were done by Larry Carlton and not their regular guitarist.
They would get Larry down to work out a solo part in many of their songs, which their own guitarist would then learn for their concerts.
I suppose it happened more than we realise.
Hugh.

[iefje]

If you want to know more about The Ventures' recording sessions in the 1960's, especially on the personnel subject, check out Malcolm Campbell and Dave Burke's treasure trove "Driving Guitars - The Music Of The Ventures In The Sixties". I have a copy, and as one would expect, it is full of interesting details and facts. Highly recommended!

[wstagner]

Andy...I thought your thread was so good, I cross-posted it here:
http://fansoftheventures.createaforum.com/general-discussion-3/the-ventures-and-the-shadows-perhaps-a-difference/msg964/#msg964

[dave robinson]

The two main differences between The Shadows and The Ventures for me were ;

A The Shadows were more often than not in tune - The Ventures were happy to play without tuning up going on what I have listened to.

B The Shadows recorded better melodies than The Ventures as far as the hits go. They are equally guilty of recording some poor melodies, for whatever reason, that were never going to work as instrumentals.

Tin hat in place

[Alan Taylor]

For a FREE download of the Malcolm Campbell & Dave Burke book on The Ventures go to: http://www.malcolmcampbell.me.uk/ where you will also find free downloads of A Pocket Guide To Shadows Music and The Shadows At Polydor.

Alan

[abstamaria]

Thanks, Alan. Andy

[wstagner]

Dave, what out-of-toon stuff I've heard is Bob's Mosrite bass. I've never owned one so I dunno if it had a propensity for going out or what. It also had a rather thin sound. Best thing about those mid-60's live recordings is the Mosrite sound and Mel Taylor's drumming. Mel, even in his later years, preferred very thick/heavy drumstix. His rimshot consistency is among the best I've ever herd.

I'd probably agree w/you on the Shads-written toons having "better" melodies. Far as the rest of the stuff, both bands tried to choose toons climing up the pop charts and turn them into instroomentals. Some results were better than others. I'm sure Leo Fender, and other mfrs thanked their lucky stars that BOTH groups existed.

I'd love to see as many of the instro greats on the same stage before they're all "gone" but alas that will likely never occur. It would probly take a 5000 seat venue to make it financially worthwhile for all of "them" to appear.

Told you this was an intresting thred, Andy.

[abstamaria]

Perhaps Dave is referring to pieces played by the Ventures in a non-standard key i.e., (not to the 440 hz tuning standard).

An example that comes to mind is "Blue Moon," which in the original Ventures recording is played at, to my ears, a half-note below C. The Ventures (Bob Bogle) plays this very well (it is one of my favorites). If one doesn't have perfect pitch, one will probably notice the non-standard key only if one tries to play along with it.

I don't think the pitch change was done after recording, as a more logical approach (for a rock band) would be to speed up the tape (which would raise the pitch), rather than slow the recorded piece. More likely, as mentioned by someone before, the anomaly was probably due to an incorrectly tuned piano in the recording studio, which all the guitarists just tuned to. No digital tuners in those days.

Andy

[abstamaria]

To digress a bit, the 440 Hz (the vibration of the A note above middle C) that our electronic tuners specify for us was adopted generally only in the 1950s. Before that, most European countries followed another standard, 430 to 435 Hz for instance. In other words, before standardization, an A note in Europe will be different from an A note in the US. Of course, all other notes will follow. Accordingly, an unadjustable-pitch instrument, such as a wind instrument, built to the old standard in Europe can’t be used in an American orchestra. The situation is more complex, actually, because the standard could vary from country to country and from time to time.

I just know of this casually and probably misstated the historical and musical facts, but you get the idea.

So, another explanation might be one of the Ventures sometimes used a tuning fork that was inherited from a grandfather from Europe. A family heirloom tuned to some European standard!

Andy

[cockroach]

Hi Andy

I think Dave means that sometimes on the recordings, the lead guitar was out of tune itself....

I love Nokie's playing and Slaughter on 10th Avenue is one of my favourite tunes, but on the 1964 recording his guitar is flat on some of the notes...nobody's perfect!

I think perhaps Hank, and especially Bruce(!), were more fussy about always being exactly in tune!

Regarding other instruments, all I can say, as a guitar player, is that some of them (saxes for example) can be re-tuned a little by adjusting the mouthpiece and reed, and by use of blowing technique, and that they often change pitch as the horn warms up or cools down..I learnt this when I played with sax players years ago!