Hank's first Meazzi

[Mark Burton]

looks like all roads lead to EF86

[dave robinson]

I agree Mark, simply because of all the experimentation that I have been through with Roberto and the Gretsch. He had a Meazzi that I used several times and he would plug it into a Vox AC30/6 or an old Fender amplifier but although it sounded great, it never did succeed in achieving the exact tone that I recognise on those old records. The day that I borrowed a JMI AC15 and plugged in my Strat through the ESE Echomatic - the sound hit me between the eyes. Please note that I use the word 'sound', that's what we're talking here - not echo. The same amp used without an echo machine gives the sound of the old records when recorded and studio reverb is added, so for me it is the answer. I agree that adding the Meazzi would make it even better and achieve probable perfection, but relying on the Meazzi through any old amp won't achieve the same goal, which is why I believe it is that old AC15 or AC30/4 that does the trick - and each of these happen to use the EF86. The later Vox amps (1961 onwards) use the ECC83 valve, which has a more 'softer' tone and fails to produce that 'honk' in the mid range. Without doubt, everyone who has visited me and heard for themselves in my little studio, has agreed that it's the amp rather than the Meazzi.
I think I have said all that I can say on this subject now and I hope everyone finds what they are looking for, as I did.

[roger bayliss]

I have followed Justin's assertions that Wonderful Land was recorded using the ef86 channel with interest and tend to lean towards that theory and found this on a forum discussing the Shadows at Abbey Rd and the desks/tapes used. They even discuss the existence of a 3 track recorder and discuss the Fairchild 660/ 670 compressor but they do have a quote from Bruce Welch about Wonderful Land that it was 'in the can' for a few years before it went out -

Bruce Welch of the Shadows in the book 'ABBEY ROAD' by Brian Southall
"The biggest change we noticed was going two-track which meant we could overdub and put another guitar on..two-track was a great invention for us. We had recorded 'wonderful land' our second most successful single, and had it in the can for years because we were'nt happy with it...Norrie went off and put strings on it when two-track came in.."
Ken Townshend of Abbey Road:
"It was all mono on 1/4 inch tape when I first began. When stereo was introduced in 1958 it corresponded with the arrival of the first british pop groups - Cliff Richard, the Shadows..."

That seems to clear some things up about WL at least

There are 3 pages on this discussion here
http://www.stevehoffman.tv/forums/showt ... ht=shadows

I am not sure which desk was used out of the REDD 17 or REDD 37 but recall Malcolm Addey mentioning about having two bass and treble controls for EQ which was of the shelving type of EQ which may well indicate the first set of recording were done on the REDD 17 and on top of that the EMI engineers were using outboard units for added EQ notably the 'Presence Unit' which was at around 8khz where the boost was centered and the REDD desks were noted for their tendency to add to the mids and warmth. The desks were of course valve based and as we know valves are much more musically pleasing because of their harmonic content.

I found this device at Elecro Harmonix which is a tube EQ unit with shelving type EQ bass and treble maybe it could help with our mixes well until someone has a go we will never know

http://www.ehx.com/products/tube-eq

Apparently Lenny Kravitz has one of the REDD37 consoles and there are still 3 in existence and some REDD 17 units so maybe someone can have a go on one

[fenderplucker]

Hi Dave,

As far as I can tell the first AC15 that used by Hank from July 1959 to June 1960 was cream, TV front and had the bolt in chassis and 1st circuit version. This used a 12AX7 in the input, not the EF86. These amplifiers were swapped for the two tone 2nd circuit version that did use the EF86 in June 1960. So I'm afraid that your claim about the EF86 does not quite stand up.

I think that the main difference in the EF86 and 12AX7 channels in later AC30's is due to the different tone stacks rather than the valve type. The EF86 channel in the later AC15's and AC30/4's had a flat mid range with maybe some top cut or boost, depending upon the circuit, whereas the top boost channels that used a 12AX7 had a mid range scoop. Interestingly the non top boost AC30/6's also used a 12AX7 but had simple tone controls like the AC15's. They sound more like the AC30/4 but have lower gain and sound a bit duller accordingly.

Finally, some time ago I wired up a two channel test preamp that had an EF86 in one channel and 12AX7 in the other. The gains were very closely matched and there were no tone controls at all. Nobody could tell which was which when I switched between them, lending support to my idea about the greater importance of the tone shaping networks.

Regards,

Paul.

[roger bayliss]

If someone wants to try an old analgue studio for a recording similar to Abbey Rd maybe this one 'll do


http://www.toeragstudios.com/



They are on Utube see here on a recording session... nice gear !

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1ztPGO5_ ... re=related

[Gary Allen]

I heard Knopfler got the desk out of studio 2 (Abbey Road) and still uses it occasionally....gary

[roger bayliss]

The reason why musicians like valves so much is best explained in an article like this one here... they are more musically pleasing due to the preference for even order harmonics and are slower to react adding natural compression to a sound and do not rasp and distort so easily when driven to overload. The harmonics are important when picking a good guitar from a bunch of em as well. Stick valves in the chain and that makes it all so much more warmer and musical so a good Strat, a Valve echo and valve mic with a valve desk is probably the full story rather than just one ingredient you need them all !

If the Meazzi is it ? try picking a tune like Theme from Shane which maybe did not use the Meazzi ? just reverb ? and compare that to some of the 'At Abbey Road' sessions such as Gonzales and Wonderful Land as these are not overdubbed and should be able to hear something to make your mind up. The opening on Gonzales has a very flat n fat blunt attack you pick up on straight away which to my mind is the effect that valves bring and yes the REDD desks are in use too so both the Meazzi and REDD desks are there on all of those 3 recordings. I play Shane and Gonzales through my AC30 ef86 and I can get Shane quite close but the tone of Gonzales is there but different on my gear because I do not have a Meazzi or REDD desk so I think I would tend to lean towards the ef86 being a big part of it but the other gear, Meazzi valve mics etc is needed otherwise the harmonic content changes and the sound is not that fat tube sound we hear.

3 pages.

http://www.tubedriver.com/tubesvstrans1.html

What say you

[dave robinson]

Hi Dave,

As far as I can tell the first AC15 that used by Hank from July 1959 to June 1960 was cream, TV front and had the bolt in chassis and 1st circuit version. This used a 12AX7 in the input, not the EF86. These amplifiers were swapped for the two tone 2nd circuit version that did use the EF86 in June 1960. So I'm afraid that your claim about the EF86 does not quite stand up.

I think that the main difference in the EF86 and 12AX7 channels in later AC30's is due to the different tone stacks rather than the valve type. The EF86 channel in the later AC15's and AC30/4's had a flat mid range with maybe some top cut or boost, depending upon the circuit, whereas the top boost channels that used a 12AX7 had a mid range scoop. Interestingly the non top boost AC30/6's also used a 12AX7 but had simple tone controls like the AC15's. They sound more like the AC30/4 but have lower gain and sound a bit duller accordingly.

Finally, some time ago I wired up a two channel test preamp that had an EF86 in one channel and 12AX7 in the other. The gains were very closely matched and there were no tone controls at all. Nobody could tell which was which when I switched between them, lending support to my idea about the greater importance of the tone shaping networks.

Regards,

Paul.

That's interesting Paul, so now all I need to hear is a 12AX7/ECC83 powered Vox that sounds as close to the sound and I'll go along with it, but to date I haven't. I've heard them sound nearly right, but never across the full range of the playable area on a Strat. If Hank did use that earlier AC15 on those early recordings pre Meazzi, i.e 'Livin' Lovin' Doll' etc - it's damn good sound.

[roger bayliss]

I heard Knopfler got the desk out of studio 2 (Abbey Road) and still uses it occasionally....gary

From what I understand there are at least 3 REDD 37's around and some REDD 17's and Toe Rag Studios has definetely got the REDD17 which was installed around 2005 I believe. The REDD 51's not sure if there are any of those around. These are the desks that set out the famous sounds that became Abbey Rd as well as the outboard gear like the Fairchild Compressor and extra EQ units employed and designed inhouse by EMI back then.. legendary valve stuff..

I wonder if we could afford to get one of us down to Toe Rag Studio's with say one of the Meazzi's and a decent ef86 Vox and strat and try it on say one of the early tunes see if it's achievable wonder how much they would charge for the studio to do one tune Anybody up for it

[MeBHank]

I heard Knopfler got the desk out of studio 2 (Abbey Road) and still uses it occasionally....gary

From what I understand there are at least 3 REDD 37's around and some REDD 17's and Toe Rag Studios has definetely got the REDD17 which was installed around 2005 I believe. The REDD 51's not sure if there are any of those around. These are the desks that set out the famous sounds that became Abbey Rd as well as the outboard gear like the Fairchild Compressor and extra EQ units employed and designed inhouse by EMI back then.. legendary valve stuff..

I wonder if we could afford to get one of us down to Toe Rag Studio's with say one of the Meazzi's and a decent ef86 Vox and strat and try it on say one of the early tunes see if it's achievable wonder how much they would charge for the studio to do one tune Anybody up for it

Roger, I'd gladly do it, in fact I'd be fascinated to hear what results we can get, but as you say, I expect cash to be the stopper on this. Plus you'd need to record a whole band, all of whom need to know how to exactly replicate their indivual parts, as UBHank backing tracks are not to the standard that would be needed for a project of this scale, and we can't legally use a track of the Shads with Hank deleted.

I wonder if the rest of the Shadowers would be interested in such a project. I'll mention it to them at rehearsal next weekend.

J