Vintage Article on Ventures: Ventures vs. Shadows

[MeBHank]

I didn't mean to start arguments, I was just quoting the magazine article because Andy hadn't seen it.

Perhaps I'd better not post anything like that again?

No, don't worry, John. I posted something similar once and regretted it, but I've since thought "it was a realistic comment, actually there wasn't a problem". Thanks for posting it, as otherwise I wouldn't have heard Hank's opinion on the Ventures' early recordings, which I find quite interesting.

Hank was speaking honestly and realistically and he has a right to do so without fear of his words coming back to haunt him, as does anyone. He wasn't name-calling or being rude/personal. It's no good him saying "the Ventures were incredible, always flawless" as it would be a lie; there were times they obviously weren't. Yes, the Shadows made mistakes which were released, but the truth is that the average standard of their recordings was a class apart from the Ventures' and they had a far more sophisticated sound. Head-to-head, the Ventures are always going to have more compliments to pay the Shadows for the quality of their work rather than the other way round. There's no point in trying to pretend otherwise and there's nothing to gain in criticising Hank for being realistic. It'd be like an FC Barcelona footballer being criticised for saying "Port Vale's midfield isn't as good as ours". Well, err, that's the truth. No-one can argue otherwise.

Speaking personally, I welcome criticism if it's given constructively (and preferably kindly!). If it's realistic I certainly can't refute it. I'd be an idiot to ignore advice; it helps me improve and when I feed it back to the Shadowers, it helps us to put on a better show next time. However, in the past I've received criticism which has crossed the line into name-calling and judgements on my personality. That's when I take exception.

IMO, though the Ventures did make some great, great records that feature some excellent lead guitar work, there were times they didn't execute the performance particularly well as an ensemble. At least when the Shadows made mistakes on record they had a sound that was just dripping with charisma. That sound, almost like a drug, makes you want to listen to the track no matter what. To quote Tony Marsh, they had one of the "best sounds in Europe" at the time, and, looking back, I would extend that to "the world".

All IMHO.

J

PS: I'm saying all this eight days before attending the Pipeline convention. Oh 'eck. Please don't lynch me!

EDIT: Ah. I've just checked the poster for Pipeline. Errrrrrrrr...

[abstamaria]

The good thing on this forum (and in Charlie's) is that there isn't much interest in Ventures vs Shadows discussions. The members in general are open-minded, fair in their comments, and not defensive. The threat of lynching (and name-calling) would probably be greater in a Ventures forum, if one said the wrong thing. But many Ventures fans I find appreciate the Shadows too and, if not, are quite fair and try to be evenhanded in their posts.

Trying to play both genres, I am more convinced now how different they are from each other. In one, drive is everything; in the other nuance and musicality more important. Tone and style are critical to one, unimportant in the other (impossible anyway with so many lead guitarists and guitars). It is perhaps a cultural difference.

The fans are quite different too. Discussions on how to get that sound are the mainstay of Shadows forums, but hardly feature in Ventures chat pages.

I'm not saying one is better than the other. Like musclecars and sports cars, they are just different.

Best,

Andres

[Ivan Pongracic Jr]

This is an interesting discussion. I'm a big Ventures fan, as well, though clearly prefer the Shadows. BUT it seems to me that most people are missing one very important element: the Ventures as a band changed fairly dramatically between 1960 and 1964-5. For one thing, Bob Bogle was the primary lead guitarist on all the early stuff, while Nokie Edwards became the primary lead guitarist by the mid-'60s (though Bob would still play some leads). Their styles and capabilities are worlds apart. Bob was a very melodic but also fairly simplistic guitarist. He had a direct style without much embellishment, and was fairly limited technically. Nokie on the hand was simply a monster, with HUGE chops. He was heavily influenced by hot country guitarists, especially by people like James Burton, Jimmy Bryant, all those Telecaster masters of the early '60s. At the same time, the Ventures' first drummer Howie Johnson was Bob Bogle's equivalent on drums - very simplistic and direct. Once they got Mel Taylor in '62, the band shifted three gears up. Mel's drumming was the equivalent of Nokie's guitar playing - hot, hot, hot! As Mel and Nokie assumed their positions in the band, Bob became a truly gifted bassist and Don Wilson became a pretty remarkable rhythm guitarist - maybe not as subtle as Bruce, but very much possessing his own distinctive style, and remarkably driving at times.

To me, the Ventures of "In Space", "Walk, Don't Run Vol. 2", "Knock Me Out!", etc., all their '64-'66 stuff (which is my favorite) are basically a completely different band than the Ventures of '60-'61. I suspect many Shadows fans prefer the earlier Ventures due to the emphasis on the melodic content, but I think it would be crazy to suggest that the Ventures of '60-'61 were anywhere close to the Shadows of '60-'61 in terms of musicianship and creativity and establishing a truly unique style (the early Ventures' sound owes a lot to the Fireballs, I think). However, the two bands took very different paths from there - whereas the Shads softened their approach over the next few years, the Ventures hardened theirs. They became a much more energetic and harder-hitting band, with musicianship that was certainly equal if not even exceeding the Shadows. Certainly it was more raw, but also IMHO more exciting than most of what the Shads were doing between '64-'66 (but in general I like music fast and energetic!). So, that's my take on comparing the two bands. I think Hank in his above comments was referring only to the early Ventures, and his comments are completely valid in that context. His comments would be utterly off base when talking about the Ventures of the mid-'60s.

BTW, no matter what Hank says now, the Shadows paid the nicest compliment they could to the Ventures in "Tales of a Raggy Tramline", which to my ears sounds like they were trying to sound as close as possible to the Ventures. And they got a lot closer than the Ventures ever could have to the Shads!

(BTW, the Ventures are quite insistent that they are NOT a surf band, nor ever were. And I think they're right. They preceded surf music, and influenced it greatly, and had a few songs that could be described as surf music, but their breadth was much greater than that.)

[Alan Taylor]

Spot-on Ivan - as usual!

Alan

[ecca]

Ivan, you're right.
I thought the Shads softened up and became sort of tame.
Man of Mystery had excitement but Shazam lacked fire compared to Duane Eddy's.

[Twang46]

Ivan, you're right.
I thought the Shads softened up and became sort of tame.
Man of Mystery had excitement but Shazam lacked fire compared to Duane Eddy's.

Now would that have anything to do with Jet & Tony leaving ?

I know I'm a fully paid up member of the "flat earth society" but for me the Shadows will always be ..................................Bruce, Hank, Jet & Tony. (alphabetical order to avoid any nonsense about which one was the most important )

Dick

[iefje]

As well as a big Shadows fan, I am also a big Ventures fan. They both have their own styles and The Ventures' style did change for the better when Mel Taylor joined and Nokie became the lead guitarist, although their very early 'primitive' style has a lot of raw energy and I think is great too. What I think The Ventures have done much better is their output of live material, The Shadows' amount of which is much less. Maybe it has something to do with The Shadows being more critical of their live recordings. I still hope the 1967 Japanese live recording will be issued officially.

[abstamaria]

I think sometimes that it was the simplicity of Walk Don't Run and the early Ventures pieces that distinguished and catapulted the band to fame.

By 1964, the British Invasion had taken full hold here, and we teenagers dropped instrumental bands. Consequently, my interest in the Ventures is focused squarely on the Bob Bogle Jazzmaster years. The sound of a Jazzmaster brings back memories for me, and I can't relate to a Mossrite at all. Ditto Burns. It's just personal taste shaped by exposure, mostly accidental.

Andy

[Stan666]

What 67 japanese live recording are you talking about?
Thanks for your kind answer.

[iefje]

What 67 japanese live recording are you talking about?
Thanks for your kind answer.

One of The Shadows' concerts in June 1967 was recorded by Columbia for a projected live album, but it was archived and never released. More information available via the following link:

http://www.malcolmcampbell.me.uk/japan/01/