Ventures 1960 Walk Don't Run - off key?

[cockroach]

As long as all instruments playing together on a record or on stage are in tune with each other, does it matter much if the whole thing is slightly off concert pitch?

It's only rock'n'roll- not the London Philharmonic!

Much more critical if an electronic keyboard is present of course, as they are usually in concert pitch.... so then everyone else needs to tune to the keyboard!

The only problem is trying to learn stuff from recordings and finding the record is not in concert pitch...a lot of the Beatles stuff was off pitch overall, and much other recordings by other folk over the years (Hendrix for one..)

[abstamaria]

It’s just a matter of historical interest for me, John.

I’m more in the category of the little guy trying to play along with the old recordings and puzzling over the different tunings. Also, I have also been trying to make backing tracks of old Ventures’ pieces with a new program called Roland RMix, so of course the resulting minus-one tracks will duplicate the original, off-pitch recordings. Luckily, one can adjust pitch in RMix, so I have done so. “Authentic” Ventures backing tracks are almost non-existent (Julian very kindly put together a few), so this is a boon.

On stage, aside from the keyboard, would wind instruments, such as trombones, tubas, clarinets, trumpets, saxes, etc., have a problem off concert pitch? I think pushing in the mouthpiece of a trombone alters the pitch, but do not know the range. I was told by our French horn player that French horns (essential for Wonderful Land) are “F” instruments (when they play a C it sounds like a F on the piano). Transposing might be a problem for him!

When we played with violinists, cellists, and other classical musicians, I found they would not play by ear, but needed sheet music. That would be an issue, too! In that regard, I just learned that a company called Electron in the 1960s published sheet music for Ventures pieces, transcribing from the record releases. “Walk Don’t Run” is written as Bb!

Cheers,

Andy

PS: Was Hank off concert pitch in any of the early (pre-1963) pieces? I marvel at Ivo who can hear Jet's off-pitch tuning; I have a hard time just tuning a bass guitar, even with an electronic tuner.

[JimN]

I was told by our French horn player that French horns (essential for Wonderful Land) are “F” instruments (when they play a C it sounds like a F on the piano). Transposing might be a problem for him!

Not really.

It simply means that the part must be written out in C rather than in G. In any case, the French Horn only has twelve notes (a six-note motif played twice) to play during the intro and about eight sustained notes to play during the main melody, with the six-note intro motif played about five or six times during the coda. Shouldn't be difficult to write out. With a bit of online research into how the French Horn relates to the clefs, I could do it and I'm sure you could, Andy.

JN

[JimN]

I just learned that a company called Electron in the 1960s published sheet music for Ventures pieces, transcribing from the record releases. “Walk Don’t Run” is written as Bb!

WDR is pretty easy to play in Bb.

I wouldn't like to be asked to play it in Ab, though.

JN

[cockroach]

But I'm sure you could play WDR in Ab if you had to Jim!

I often play any tune that occurs to me in a number of different keys for practice and to keep the old mind and fingers in condition- transposing seems to be a dying art nowadays though- perhaps due to tab and video lessons being used a lot?

(I suppose having to learn skill in transposing may come from having to back lots of different vocalists over the years, although my own voice has gone to pieces with old age and I find that to try to sing stuff I used to sing, I often need to try other keys to manage it, and this means not only playing the tune or song chord sequences in different keys, but also the solos, riffs, intros etc)

I read a Jeff Beck anecdote once where he said that the Yardbirds once had to follow the Beatles on a live TV show- Jeff's guitar was missing, and he borrowed George's Gretsch- he didn't check the tuning with the other guys in the Yardbirds and was horrified to find himself having to play Smokestack Lightning in Eb...

(Piece of cake!!

[abstamaria]

Thanks, Jim, John. Thankfully, Wonderful Land is played in standard concert pitch. I suppose the problem will really be with the fixed-pitch instruments such as the piano and marimba.

I am told that U.S. studios, particularly Joe Boles' (where the Ventures first recorded) fiddled with pitch and tempo a great deal. I suppose the standard was different at Abbey Road, as Hank's pieces all seem to be in correct pitch (or so I think, anyway).

Best,

Andy

[hernando]

Back in the day .. When I first started learning to play guitar in the early 1960's I liked to strum along with the likes of FBI on a 45 rpm vinyl or the Spotnicks 33 rpm album. Problem was that having tuned my guitar using standard pitch pipes, it was never in tune with the record. I thought that this was more to do with the record player having less than accurate speeds. I remember either having to re-tune the guitar to the record or if I was using my parent's radiogram, I could vary the speed of the record to match the guitar pitch.

Sorted

Never really gave a thought to whether the original recording was at concert pitch or not. This same problem resurrected itself recently when I was making mp3 copies of my old vinyls. Luckily this can now be overcome using software to change pitch and speed independantly.

Dave

[Uncleboko]

Back in the day .. When I first started learning to play guitar in the early 1960's I liked to strum along with the likes of FBI on a 45 rpm vinyl or the Spotnicks 33 rpm album. Problem was that having tuned my guitar using standard pitch pipes, it was never in tune with the record. I thought that this was more to do with the record player having less than accurate speeds. I remember either having to re-tune the guitar to the record or if I was using my parent's radiogram, I could vary the speed of the record to match the guitar pitch.

Sorted

Never really gave a thought to whether the original recording was at concert pitch or not. This same problem resurrected itself recently when I was making mp3 copies of my old vinyls. Luckily this can now be overcome using software to change pitch and speed independantly.

Dave

That's why I always tuned my guitar to Apache!

[Pinner Fan]

How in tune is Vic Flick's guitar on the John Barry Seven version of Walk Don't Run ??

[chas]

I always used to think when I was young that maybe transferring music from machine to machine before pressing may have been the reason for slight variations in tuning (machines running at very slightly different speeds etc.). I don't actually think that was the case - certainly we now know that the speeds were sometimes deliberately changed (because a good 'take' sounded better a touch faster tempo for example), but I think probably a very important reason was simply that a lot of bands who didn't have a fixed pitch instrument simply tuned to a band member who's guitar was in tune 'with itself' (not necessarily concert pitch).
In the first band I was in we'd nearly always tune to the rhythm guitarist (who may have been playing along to a record - who know's?) - we could easily have been a semi-tone up or down from concert pitch without giving it a thought. I'm positive that was a pretty common occurrence and would account for variations in pitch/key. I think we've all encountered records that we know involved the use of open strings that creates a particular sound, only to find that the number appears to be in an impossible key - usually a semi-tone from ideal.

Chas.