Why aren't the Shadows cool?

[ecca]

I remember someone asking me some years back who was the biggest influence on me and them looking incredulously at me when I said Hank Marvin.

[captainhaddock]

They can't have been that bad really, 56 years on and we are still debating them. Many of us are still wishing that they were active and many of you are still trying to emulate their musical prowess, hats off and heartfelt thanks to them.

[Twang46]

I don't think it has something to do with Tony and Jet having left in late 1961 and early 1962 respectively. The Shadows were still cool and popular with Brian Bennett and Brian Locking and shortly after with John Rostill instead of Brian Locking. The musical trends were changing from 1963 onwards and I think they would have become uncool anyway, even if Tony and Jet had stayed.

I disagree, after the departure of Jet it was never the same ..............Brian's drumming technique was of course different & when you add in the change of bass player .........no way did the band sound (to me) as good.

Hank had wanted a more "melodic" style & he got that...................................... then came the arrival of "beat combo's" that led to the Beatles & the Stones breaking through & the music "scene" had changed forever.

Drifters/Shads up to early 1962.......................The classic years.

Afterwards there seemed to be lots of different styles/outlooks being tried which a lot of people do really like.............parts of which I really enjoyed as well (especially MW&F)

My opinion only of course

Dick.

[Fenderman]

I'd disagree with that, i'd say the classic era was probably towards the end of the ten year stint and i thought JOhn Rostill's bass playing brought a different sound to the band, as ive said before he was my favourite bass player in the Shads, he was way ahead of his time but thats for another topic

[Monty]

The pre-Beat Boom Shadows were pretty much in a league of their own, but that probably counted against them later as, like The Everly Brothers once the Beat Boom arrived in 1963 the pre-beat boom acts were largely (unfairly) seen as just being "yesterdays" acts - even the likes of say the legendary Johnny Kidd &The Pirates, along with The Shads (who at least kept having decent hits as their instrumentals idiom was not impinged by the vocal groups) sadly failed to gain from the groups beat boom they had directly inspired (hence Mick Green opted for The Dakotas job in 1964)

The Swinging Blue Jeans were covering Shads vocal tracks in 1964...they clearly rated the band, while Hank still took 'top guitarist' & The group 'Top instrumentalists' sections in the music press polls of the beat boom era...

We of course KNOW the Shads, Everlys, Johnny Kidd etc were STILL classic acts who made great records but I do think them being established acts from an earlier period actually went against them - likewise later for bands such as The Searchers after 1965...and later bands like The Tremeloes after 1971...as somehow some acts get classed as ' yesterday's ' acts

The Shads didn't help themselves re the 'cool' image by doing the musicals with Cliff or those pantos - playing 'Wishy Washy Bishy Boshy' or whatever...' (Something I believe Brian Bennett loathed !)

Hank & co 'leaping about' like total plonkers as Cliff sings 'Batchelor Boy' in 'Summer Holiday'....hardly did the band's image any favours in the eyes of the the kids of 1963....

The Beatles first film was totally the opposite of Cliff's 'fairytale' styled musicals (likewise even The Dave Clark Five & Gerry's films)...yet in 1964 ('Wonderful Life') & even as late as 1966 ('Finders Keepers') The Shads are still doing musicals with Cliff that looked so dreadfully dated (despite some fine Shads penned material)

then the pantos - can you imagine The Stones or The Who etc doing/writing 'Aladdin' or 'Babes in The Wood'...?

yet their little remembered (besides by us) Monty Python-ish zany 'Rhythm & Greens' (1964) anticipates bits of the Beatles more surreal stuff later they took flak for at the time yet get so praised for now ('Magical Mystery Tour', 'Yellow Submarine' etc)

Being depicted as puppets in 'Thunderbirds Are Go' (1966) was hardly 'cool' at the time either....was it ?

Hank's name is depicted in a jokey TV commercial now - as to whether that can be deemed 'cool' is arguable, but it was really when Mark Knopfler at the height of Dire Straits fame cited Hank &The Shads as a major influence that some belated 'cool' credibility was bestowed upon them

In truth they really 'played it safe' by their image after Jet Harris left, and probably made it 'too establishment' in many ways - the three piece suits and then bow tie & tuxedo image testify to that and really did 'Marvin, Welch & Farrar' no favours as their far more contemporary look in 1971 and sound as they attempted to escape from the 'Shadow' of The Shadows...just wasn't accepted by many who had got so used to their always so very 'conservative' sixties Shadows image

I think The Shads looked their 'coolest' after Jet Harris era in the seventies on 'Curly Leads' & 'Specs Appeal' with John Farrar with all dressed in casual gear - later in the 80's it was back to stage suits and a very 'safe' image when doing the current pop covers etc...

the 'coolest' they ever got later was when they played Knebworth with Cliff in the late eighties or early nineties (whenever it was) - belting out Rock & Roll songs backed by a brass section plus did a few suitable hits like; 'Move it', 'It'll Be Me', 'Do You Wanna Dance', 'In The Country', etc plus 'We Don't Talk Anymore' - where many were surprised just how WELL Cliff/Shadows went down with the festival crowd...

[Twang46]

Good summation there Monty.........

I more or less agree with everything

Dick.

[Paul Childs]

I think that with the beat boom, The Shadows were in a no win situation. During 1962 with Brian & Licorice (which made the bands line up, 50% Shadows and 50% Krew Kats), their popularity was still there with The Beatles just coming on the scene but as the 60s moved on with less hits than they previously had they did some vocal singles as well but then it wasn't them as the public knew who expected instrumentals and vocal numbers done with Cliff.
Even in the 70s with MWF they would still get shouts for Apache & FBI. They just couldn't win but by the late 70s they came back with their old image as best as possible and it was like they never went away, just needed a few years break for the public to realise how good they were.
Don't know how it would have worked from the beginning if they were known as a five piece band with Cliff as the Shadows (or another name) and not Cliff Richard and the Shadows?

[MikeAB]

A fascinating thread and all the answers are probably totally valid. Were they doomed from the start and damaged by the early 60's suits' doctrine of 'you must be family entertainers to survive' ? Probably - but would they have shifted bucketloads of the later albums if they'd stayed rock-cool ? Probably not.

It's interesting I always think to look for key moments when they might have stopped the slide into 'non coolness' - maybe after Flingel Bunt which with the heavier sound (helped no end by the new Brian /John line up) arrested the signs of a slide away from the top ten and fitted into the new scene perfectly - but a weird hotch-potch of largely characterless singles ensued - particularly sad that was, I've always thought - maybe (sacrilege?) a more Shades of Rock sound could have helped.

MWF stood a chance but they still stuck with the Cliff concerts, increasingly MOR at that time, and not with the concept long enough. Maybe a developed 'heavier' Shads could have brought in the MWF material without the need for a name change? Probably not.

Then Curly Leads gave a sliver of hope, and maybe if Humbucker had been cleverly promoted as a cool 'jamming' single they would have had a chance in '73 - but then what - Eurovision. Was there even a chance just post Eurovision - maybe, but not with Run Billy Run. Then with the Argentina thru' to to Riders recovery they had a chance - and Equinoxe really should have done it - but I think the Riders and the other TOTP appearances damaged them, still embarrassing now if we're honest.

I rather suspect they are starting to be quietly cool again even now, as the reviews on YouTube and iTunes etc are mostly glowing and that's what seems to be what counts.

The rather sad truth is we like to leave wilder lives through our heroes than we ourselves do, or really wish to, but The Shads are to many of us like cosy, close and dependable life long friends that you think you know well and would be pleased to have at your home. Not so some of the 'cool' people who might wreck the joint. And that's fine by me.

[mojolomjl]

Been following this thread with interest. Firstly I don't think back in the early 60s anybody knew what the word cool meant apart from not being warm
In the early 60s our group where supporting the Beatles at a gig near Warrington and we opened up with Do You Wanna Dance which brought the house down,
we also included Apache and Wonderful Land which also went down very well. Being of a certain age I neither know nor care what cool means, I just know what
I like and don't care what other people think

Maurice.

[drakula63]

Although I wasn't there, I suspect that both the Shadows AND Cliff were considered pretty cool in 1958 - 1960. I suspect also that the Shads in particular were more interested in being serious musicians than cool dudes. Brian was taking lessons in musical arrangement in 1961, settling down to get married and showing a willingness to play virtually any type of music for virtually anyone. Jet looked cool, no doubt about it, but in his case, tragically, the other things staretd to get in the way of the music.

I have always regarded the Shadows as the most professional and versatile of all the 60s 'pop' groups. In all of it, they did what we should all do, they were just themselves. If being themselves meant NOT smashing up hotel rooms, snorting drugs, falling out of night clubs in a state of alcoholic oblivion or driving expensive cars into swimming pools then so be it. The music was everything to them and I suspect that the image (and what people thought of them) was always secondary.

Of course it would have been nice to have seen them on Later...with Jools Holland, or Whistle Test, but they appeared on Top of the Pops more than most and seemed to plough their own furrow, so that's good enough for me.