Cheap Musicians?

[dave robinson]

May I request that the word scab not used again?

It was an unfortunate choice of word. On the other hand it was not directed at any member of this forum.

Let's stick to the subject please

Thanks - Iain

Agreed, the use of the word was unfortunate but wasn't directed at anyone here.

[petercreasey]

May I request that the word scab not used again?

It was an unfortunate choice of word. On the other hand it was not directed at any member of this forum.

Let's stick to the subject please

Thanks - Iain

Agreed, the use of the word was unfortunate but wasn't directed at anyone here.

Indeed, unfortunate but directed at people who perform for no financial gain and still unacceptable.

[Hank2k]

For the record almost every gig I've ever done I've done for free (no bugger would pay for me ) but seriously I love playing this music and performing and keeping the music alive means more to me than money, though I do always insist on a donation to charity, apologies if I have made it difficult for others

[Paul Childs]

As for usetting a few people on here which was not personal to anyone, I only meant what has happened to musicians who do it for a living and have been destroyed by undercutting by some people who think the can get more work that way but they don't realise that by doing that they are only doing more nights for the same money in the long run.

I always thought musicians are supposed to be thick skinned being in all types of venues and never knowing what will happen with heckling or worse and I've certainly had my share and had a lot of upsetting things said to me which I got used to and ignored.

I noticed that some people on here complaining come from places up North and I always thought that they say what they think up there, that is what they always tell me anyway but it looks to me like they don't like to hear anything said about them.

As I said it wasn't intended to be personal to anyone.

[Paul Creasey]

Well, I guess that's the closest we'll get to an apology.
Not "The Proper Job" I've come to expect from the West Country, but then again, we probably shouldn't always trust Regional stereotypes - from whatever Region - should we?
Regards
The Other Paul (You know..........the one who plays for nowt!)

[MeBHank]

Hello "Professionals"!
In the ten years that "Life Story" have been playng, we've raised money for Help for Heroes & British Heart Foundation, to name but two, and entertained vulnerable elderly people and folks with learning difficulties, without payment of any kind.
Why? Because we enjoy the music, enjoy maintaining & playing our instruments, enjoy meeting people, and enjoy each others company. If you will, it is our version of paying-out hard-earned cash to play golf, go sailing, etc etc.

Neither do we either seek, or claim-to, populate the "moral high ground" in comparison with more commercial outfits.

I am sorry if you "Professionals" see all this as some kind of threat, but very much doubt that ANY of our Gigs have prevented you earning your living, or "devalued live entertainment" - on the contrary, gigs that we have done in support of local community theatres have helped to MAINTAIN live entertainment (and not only musical entertainment, either) in places that would otherwise cease to exist.

There is no doubt that the "sharp practices" by bookers that you mention exist (they certainly did back in the day when I DID play for money) and I am in no way condoning them. However, in the rather narrow field of Shadows-style music, if you "get rid" of the enthusiastic amateur, there would be precious little left!

Surely, there is room for the professional AND amateur in any field of endeavour, so ... "Live and let live", eh?

Paul, you've got it spot on. Here are my thoughts from the flip side, as someone who now earns their money solely from playing music:

I've been playing professionally (occasionally in tandem with a day job during the periods when gigs are hard to find) for about ten years. I have approached countless publicans in that time. Pricing gigs is one of the more awkward parts of this game. Personally, I have never chosen to settle on a strict fee, but I quote a guide price and am willing to haggle a bit if necessary. I try to charge a price relative to the size of the venue and to the business likely to be generated. Even though I know I have a good "product", I try to price myself reasonably; not too high, not too low.

In terms of musicians charging for their services or not it's all relative. If someone performs a full gig without charge I very much doubt it's at a pub or club which is using the live music to boost its sales. Invariably they will be doing so in support of something, be it a in aid of a charity, a local event or a community project. I've never felt any sort of threat from people who play for free. I don't believe there is a crossover. Very few music pubs will receive free offers of organised live music. Good publicans are good businessmen and as such I would expect them to treat such offers with a certain amount of caution in case they advertised a musician who turned out to have a negative impact on business or on the reputation of the venue. Often, such as at our own Shadows clubs, professionals and amateurs alike play out of the sheer, simple enjoyment of playing music to people who share their passion, often paying "subs" for the privilege to perform, the money from which is invested into the future of the club. Beyond jam nights and music clubs, professionals have their own, fairly exclusive market (though I generally find they enjoy attending and supporting social music gatherings, sometimes with a view to getting exposure for their own product).

To provide some perspective, I have started playing hour-long performances in old people's homes (and I doubt I'll ever have a more rewarding playing experience on such a regular basis). I expect to turn this avenue into a staple part of my income. It is one area where professionals and amateurs will likely cross paths. Although funding for these places is not good they do have budgets which I find I can work within, meaning I come away happy with the money I have been paid. As I do with pub gigs, I price myself fairly, relative to the number of residents and therefore the individual budget. Without fail, every home I have played has asked me back, happy to pay me again. Amateur musicians, singers and entertainers often provide homes with music or activities for free, but I do not sense any resentment from managers or carers when I am being paid. They accept that I am a professional earning a living with a product of a certain standard and so they are happy to pay me. I get great appreciation and feedback from carers and residents alike.

I have, though, never escaped the common trap of using my hobby as my source of income. In the last ten years I've barely broken even. In fact I have a small level of debt which is slowly being paid off. Relying on music is a tough life (especially in my locality). There are no more Johnny Fosters ready to provide musicians with a leg up into what will become a successful fifty year career.

J

PS: To be pedantic, anyone who is paid money for performing music in the UK is semi-professional and all earnings should be declared to HMRC.

[ecca]

Blimey Just, were you bored or something ? Have you ever thought of rewriting War and Peace ?

[MeBHank]

Blimey Just, were you bored or something ? Have you ever thought of rewriting War and Peace ?

I'm not sure I've ever written anything that anyone actually wanted to read.

[Paul Creasey]

Au contraire, Justin!

Your post was informative, well researched, and well written...............nowt wrong with that!
"War and Peace" makes a refreshing change from all the talk around these parts of Fiesta Red and "That Sound".
Of course, your post being supportive of my own views on the subject of this thread has no bearing at all on my liking it!
But seriously (the foregoing was written "tongue in cheek" - honest ) it was good of you to go against the flow a bit, and reassured me somewhat that I haven't "gone mad" in my dotage.

Regards
Paul.

[cockroach]

Justin

These days I'm trying to save from my day job whilst I'm still working full time to help when I retire late this year, but I try to only buy another guitar, amp etc if I can use it for gigs immediately, so that it pays for itself- G.A.S. could be disastrous financially for a musician who is trying to make a living by playing! I've even SOLD a couple of guitars that I wasn't using for live work recently- and NOT bought any replacements...YET! Deliver me from temptation!

Try selling the Fender and buying and using a Squier, and using the saved money to live on or pay off debts for instance!