Dance With the Shadows

[fenderplucker]

Hi,

This is indeed an intriguing question that doesn't seem to have a simple answer, particularly if we rely on our hearing!

For example, we can get very close to the original sound of French Dressing (from DWTS) using a Strat and the same applies to This Hammer and Shazam recorded at the same session in August 1963 in the Jubilee Hall in Blackpool while on tour. However, Blue Shadows was recorded at the same session and has a Burns character to the sound that I haven't yet been able to accurately reproduce on a Strat . Shindig was recorded at the same venue a few days later and is also difficult to accurately match on a Strat no matter how much I try with equalization, pickup selection, playing position, mic position, etc. They apparently used the White Strats on that tour, but many think they were also assessing Burns prototypes at the time that could have been used for those tunes. Similarly, Walkin’ was recorded back at Abbey Road later in November 1963 and has a pronounced Burnsy character that I can’t nail on a Strat. Theme for Young Lovers was recorded at at the same session and we can get very close with a Strat, but others argue for it being done on a Burns. The rest of the DWTS tracks were recorded in mid February 1964 and, based upon the sound and difficulty matching it with a Strat, most seem to have been done with a Burns, except possibly for Chatanooga Choo Choo and the High and Mighty that we do seem to be able to match very closely with a Strat. And this is all before the acknowledged "first" use of the Burns with Flingel Bunt later in February 1964 (though Hank may have been referring to its use on a single?). How confusing is that!

As others have said, it is made all the more complicated by the changing use of the tone controls on the Top Boost AC30's, with apparently more use being made of both the bass and treble set high to give a quite nasal sound and the hard edge taken off with the top cut nearly fully on (almost changes a Strat into a Burns: think Atlantis!). Recording some of the tunes at Blackpool might have also influenced the sound.

So, based upon our attempts at matching the sound, my guess is that there was probably a period of overlap and experimentation using both Strats and Burns in late 1963 and early 1964, though this is hardly a new revelation!

Unfortunately Hank doesn’t recall any of that detail.

Sorry to add to the confusion,

Paul.

Edit: I originally thought that Shazam was hard to get right on a Strat but think that I have now nailed it so I have edited the above accordingly. I might need to have another go a Blue Shadows and Shindig to see if I can do better on a Strat.

[Bojan]

Wow, Paul, what a great reply . . . thanks. As you say, it does add to the confusion, but at least we're having fun talking about it, experimenting, and trying out various possibilities. Some songs sound equally authoritative on Strat and Burns, so I guess we'll just have to play our way through this "transitional" period.

Best to you guys Down Under!!
Bojan

[franz]

Hi, Bojan,
Rather a late reply I'm afraid.
I have the 1964 DWTS album which I bought in 1964. Some of it was recorded at the Jubilee Theatre in Backpool and some at Abbey road according to the sleeve notes. It seems unlikely that HBM would have a range of guitars available to him in Blackpool and so would be likely to record with the guitars they were using on tour. What happened at Abbey road I don't know.
However, when I bought the album, I was struck immediately by how different the lead guitar sound was from the previous albums. Much more "oily"(sorry Burns fans) particularly on the treble strings without the purer sound of the strat. I came to the conclusion that it was all, or nearly all, recorded with the Burns.
I have both a Burns and a 1962 strat. Having tried them both through my AC30 top boost, and trying different settings in conjunction with listening closely to the recorded sound, it seemed to my ears that most if not all were Burns recorded. The album centre shows "recorded 1964" although i presume in view of previous posts that this would be the date of the final recording.
I think that that is the clue to the difference between the first and second albums. The first seems to be recorded either with an AC15 or with an AC30/4,whatever amps were available to the band at the time. The second which I had thought for years was also EF86 orientated, seems to be mostly with an AC30TB. The difference, apart from the valves, lies with the settings. Full treble and bass with full cut on The Rumble, for instance and treble at twenty two, bass full and cut ten two (looking at the amp from the front) on Tales of a Raggy Tramline and 1861. So, much more gain from those controls. That gives a slightly thinner (dare I say more oily?)- sound to the treble strings but a richer sound to the bassnotes. The same sort of settings are also appropriate for the Burns on DWTS.
If I have got this all wrong then my ears are to blame and forgive me.I have spent many hours experimenting.
Regards,
Franz

[franz]

Second go! I forgot that Brian Locking told me that Atlantis was recorded with a Burns and Theme for Young lovers on the Strat, which chronologically seems to be out of kilter. I could have sworn that it was the other way round from listening. However, that seems to bear out that a Burns was being used much earlier than we think.
Franz

[Iain Purdon]

Brian Locking told me that Atlantis was recorded with a Burns...

I think Geronimo was recorded in the same session as Atlantis. If I'm right, that poses a similar question!

[bor64]

So maybe this put some light on the mater so to speak "from the horses mouth" the man himself....
https://app.box.com/s/zzpqlnrb79wx4cc9tg7x

So after listening to this small piece of a intervieuw of in total 45 minutes with Hank,we can put al the guessing to bed now??

Cheers

[roger bayliss]

So maybe this put some light on the mater so to speak "from the horses mouth" the man himself....
https://app.box.com/s/zzpqlnrb79wx4cc9tg7x

So after listening to this small piece of a intervieuw of in total 45 minutes with Hank,we can put al the guessing to bed now??

Cheers

That from the man himself so there !

[George Geddes]

In the course of that interview extract, Hank says that TFYL was recorded in Blackpool in the summer... I was always under the impression that it was recorded at Abbey Road with Hank playing rhythm, as Bruce was holidaying in the sun for health reasons.

George

[Stratpicker]

So maybe this put some light on the mater so to speak "from the horses mouth" the man himself....
https://app.box.com/s/zzpqlnrb79wx4cc9tg7x

So after listening to this small piece of a intervieuw of in total 45 minutes with Hank,we can put al the guessing to bed now??

Cheers

There'll be lots of HBM Burns's on eBay this weekend
Fascinating snippet, Rob. Where can I find the full 45 min interview?
Cheers
Ian

[JimN]

Interesting interview...

After hearing it, though, one wonders what can be made of Hank's statement - at the time of the unveiling of the Burns Marvin guitars in the UK spring of 1964 - that the guitar had been two years in development involving multiple prototypes.

Or what can be made of Hank's statement on a UK TV programme in May 1962 that the Shadows were having guitars built to their design.