Ventures vs Shadows Yet Again

[grayn]

The Shads always sound more polished to me.

The Ventures came out of the Surf scene and their earlier, live recordings, certianly have that energy.

Overall though I find their stuff very middle of the road and a little rough (not in a particularly good way) around the edges.

But it's very hard to be objective, when you grown up with one group and have only been vaguely aware, of the other.

They are good but the Shadows are great.

[Uncle Fiesta]

Whilst I often prefer other people's versions to Shadows' versions (Breeze and I - Fentones, Lonely Bull - Eagles, Perfidia - Ventures) this is definitely not one of them.

The Shadows version of Apache was their own original interpretation of Jerry Lordan's composition, whereas the Ventures took theirs from Jorgen Ingmann, who got it from Bert Weedon.

Although a great fan of the Ventures, and I find that some of their material is more complicated and difficult to play then the Shadows, I have mentioned before on here that in my opinion, they just didn't have the sound. They never used echo, and hardly ever reverb. And I always thought surf music was supposed to be drowned in reverb!

[JimN]

As with most pop music trends over the decades, The Ventures certainly played a bit of surf. But "bit" is the operative word: The Ventures pre-dated the surf scene by several years and emphatically did not have their origins in surf music.

[Billyboygretsch]

I like the moontrekkers as well as the Shadows and Ventures Merle Travis and Chet Atkins and on and on. Some excellent guitarists in here. Was Merle Travis better than Chet Atkins - here we go again
I liked earlier stuff better than latter same goes for me with Elvis

[bridev]

Like Steve I prefer the Ventures version of Perfidia, but as far as Apache is concerned the Shads is by far the best. Their version to me invokes an image of a lone Apache on an outcrop of rock looking out over the plain and then galloping away. The Ventures rendition does nothing at all for me. But of course that is only my opinion.

[abstamaria]

I also prefer a sunburst Strat to a Fiesta Red Strat

The first Fenders I saw were sunbursts, and of course the Ventures (who became popular ahead of the Shadows here on this tropical island) used sunbursts. But even then they kinda looked old-fashioned to me. They reminded me of the instruments my father might use. Perhaps that is why most bands then used painted guitars.

Well, today, with the luxury of an accommodating budget, we have Fiesta Red guitars (except for the J200) for playing Shadows, and sunbursts for Ventures stuff. Customshop had a very nice '56 Strat on the shelves, so Don Wilson's guitar is easy to replicate. Nokie's '57 to early '59 Precision, with its aluminum pick guard, more difficult. It's just fun for us. The few shows we do are also intended to bring back visual memories, so the indulgence with the colors we try to justify on that basis! We know they don't make a difference to the sound. But it's a hobby so logic doesn't count!

Andy

[Monty]

You have to remember The Ventures had VERY differing sounds at various points in their career - The Shads had the 'Marvin sound' with only the John Farrar years providing any real variation on that - Hank Marvin's guitar sound is the trademark of The Shads throughout all their various line up eras.

The Ventures were not a 'Surf Band' - because 'Surf Rider' was in that film & they did a 'surfin with...' album many think that's all they were...not true

Neither were they just the 'Walk Don't Run' / 'Pefidia' Shads-ish outfit of 1959-63 - with Bob Bogle (Lead), Don Wilson (Rhythm), Nokie Edwards ( Bass) & Howie Johnson (Drums) - Ventures 'Mark one'

they differ totally from the 'mark two' Ventures - Nokie (Lead), Bob( Bass) Don (Rhythm) & Mel Taylor (Drums) - a FAR tougher more 'pop/Rock' type instrumental band with a far more powerful tighter sound than the 'loose' Mark One Ventures (listen to Mel Taylor play 'Caravan') and just compare 'Perfidia' to 'Slaughter on Tenth Avenue' etc - they used the Mosrite guitars with almost no echo giving a very 'dry' sharp sound.

The 'Mark Two' Ventures can be found on albums such as; 'Walk Don't Run Vol 2' (1964), 'Knock Me Out' (1965), 'Go With The Ventures' (1966), 'Wild Things' (1966) etc...

The 'Mark Three' Ventures are different again - Gerry McGee (ace session guitarist on hits by The Monkees, Mamas & Papas etc- 'Last Train To Carksville', 'Monday Monday' etc ) replaces Nokie
- Gerry had/has a very distinctive 'clipped' style of 'firing the notes at you' with an almost 'economical' approach - he features on singles; 'Hawaii Five-O' onwards...plus albums such as; 'The Horse' (1968 - featuring a good version of The Stones 'Jumpin' Jack Flash'), then 'Underground Fire' (1969 - an album of mostly rock band covers & a Dylan song etc)

Gerry McGee remains until around 1972 & the 'Shaft' album when Nokie returns & drummer Joe Barile replaces Mel Taylor (Ventures 'Mark Four' !)

Later various other line ups apply...tho' in later years Nokie & Gerry have alternated as lead guitarists
Mel Taylor rejoined & remained until his death - his talented drummer son Leon Taylor replaced him, while long time Ventures friend & occasional guest Bob Spaulding came in on bass guitar when Bob Bogle died a few years back

Now its Don Wilson, Leon Taylor, Bob Spaulding - with Gerry McGee or Nokie Edwards on lead guitar

They began a fresh series of albums circa 2000 - recorded with a far more modern sound, initially featuring Gerry McGee on lead, they cut good covers of tracks such as The Eagles 'One of These Nights' & a fine version of 'Classical Gas' too plus original material (The Ventures have cut far more 'originals' than most people realise)

they used a fuzz bass on 'The 2000lb Bumble Bee' (!) in 1962, plus featured a fuzz guitar well on 'Flights of Fantasy' (1967), used a guitar/sitar on 'Kyoto Doll' (they have issued a whole series of Japan only albums - in Japan they outsold The Beatles !)

so The 'Walk Don't Run/'Perfidia' Ventures ('Mark One') sound like a completely different band to the 'Mark Two' ('House of The Rising Sun'/'Slaughter on Tenth Ave'/'Rap City'/'Love Potion No.9'/'Wild Thing'/'Eight Miles High' etc) Ventures....who differ again from the 'Mark Three' ('Jumpin Jack Flash'/'Hawaii Five-O'/'Born To Be Wild'/'Sunshine of Your Love'/'Underground Fire'/'Shaft' etc) Ventures...or the several later versions - the post 2000 version sounding far more 'modern'

You really have about four or so DIFFERENT Ventures 'sound wise'...with only the first version being anything like in 'Shadows territory'

The Marvin/Farrar Shads of 'Rockin With Curly Leads/Specs Appeal/Live in Paris/Tasty are closer to The Ventures overall - on tracks like; 'Honorable Puff Puff', 'Jungle Jam', 'Jumpin Jack Input' etc- plus the occasional earlier Shads tracks like; 'Rank A Chank, Alice in Sunderland, 'Breakthru', 'Late Night Set', 'Benno San', 'March To Drina', Thunderbirds', 'Last Train To Clarksville', 'Voyage To The Bottom of The Bath' etc see The Shads more in 'Ventures Mark 2 & 3' idiom...

people of course have their own favorites - but its pointless to try to say whose better than who...(i.e. Clapton, Beck, or Page in The Yardbirds ?) - in The Shadows, Ventures, and Spotnicks we had three classic guitar led instrumental outfits and should enjoy them all and their many great recordings

just as vocally The Beach Boys, Four Seasons & Hollies all had a different instantly recognisable vocal harmony sound...and all made many classic records

[abstamaria]

That is a good history of the Ventures, Geoffrey. I agree with you.

“The Ventures” is like a brand, akin to a football team whose players and styles change, but the name remains the same. One can’t just like the Ventures, one must think of the specific eras, as the style and sound change dramatically. They might as well, and in fact were, different bands.

You musn’t forget the session musicians, whose recordings were marketed under the Ventures name. Guitar Twist, Trambone, Gandy Dancer … even Hawaii 5-O now seems accredited to a session guitarist (Tommy Tedesco I recall). They had their own style and sound, too.

Unlike you, however, I like Ventures Mark 1, with Bob Bogle mostly on lead and the fat Jazzmaster sound. That was what I first listened to. After 1963, when the Ventures and the Shadows swapped their Fenders for Mosrites and Burns respectively, I stopped listening to them, as most teenagers here and probably in the U.S. Not because of the switch to different guitars, but because there was a fresh new sound – the Beatles, the British Invasion. At that point, guitar music was no longer cool. Most everyone here more or less my age on this island remembers the Ventures and the Shadows pre-1963, but would not recognize their post-63 music, except ironically Hawaii 5-O. That music could not bridge the Pacific Ocean.