Diligence versus Talent

[abstamaria]

There is a study that concluded that dedicated practice accounts for almost all – at least 80% - of the difference between an elite performer and the dedicated amateur. That was the inspiration for the “10,000 hour rule” – the number of hours said needed for expert performance. The study applies to sports, music, chess and other endeavors.

That is good news for talent-challenged people like me. At least, there is hope.

A new paper, reported in this week’s International New York Times (the former International Herald Tribune, an excellent newspaper), attributes a smaller contribution to practice – about 20% - and making inborn talent a more important factor. This is bad news for me.

However, the new paper has been criticized because it lumped playing for fun and casual practice into “practice.” The older study suggests that it is dedicated study that is critical and which would account for the 80% difference. That would be practice, for instance, with a teacher providing critique and continually upping the standard. I think I agree with this view, which supports the first study.

The paper also reported that scientists separately have found actual performance – a form of dedicated practice I suppose - an important component. For guitarists, I think that is true. My level skills rose steeply with shows for a paying audience (but admittedly they were pretty dismal to start with, so any improvement was monumental).

I thought this might be interesting for us guitarists here.

Andy

[Billyboygretsch]

Does it apply to drummers haha

[Paul Creasey]

Hello Andy & Bill,

..................and there I was thinking it was all about going down to the crossroads and selling your soul to the devil!

Bill, I think it DOES apply to Drummers (an intentional capital letter there!) - unless you're a lazy old so-and-so like me who gave up being an ace at stick-twiddling YEARS ago.

Whatever, it beats just relying on the (many) recommendations for the purchase of the latest piece of electronic wizardry, I think.

Regards
Paul.

[abstamaria]

Haha, yes, my mistake. Drummers especially!

Andy

[Risky]

Andy

The 10,000 hours idea is the main reason that I gave up playing three years ago. Back in 2011 I calculated that I had "practised" for at least 12,000 hours over 47 years. This was a conservative estimate and the real figure may well have been nearer to 20,000. This is when reality smacks you right in the face. When you realise that you are not even a good amateur despite putting in the amount of hours it takes to become an "elite performer" (according to the theory) then you have to accept that some other factor is at work. That factor, of course, is talent! Some people have it and others don't. Unfortunately when you are well into your sixties, musical talent is not something that is suddenly going to appear. Mind you, never having had the benefit of "a teacher providing critique and continually upping the standard" probably doesn't help either.

The solution I found to this was to walk away and look for other areas where hidden talents may be lurking! I'll let you know when I find one

Risky

[noelford]

Phil, that makes me feel really sad. If you put all those hours in you must surely have been getting pleasure from playing. Even if you can never reach the standard you aspire to (if this is even possible for anyone), you shouldn't have to give up something that you personally enjoy doing.

[dave robinson]

Being a good player is about ones desire to achieve a certain standard (in my case it was enjoyment at first, then became a source of income) and being diciplined by your own motivation to succeed. Nobody is going to do it for you, when I started there was no one to show you the way and no fast track methods, you sat and worked it out for yourself. This is why I hold the likes of Hank, Bruce, Jet & Tony in such high regard, they created the music we love and we just copied it.

[abstamaria]

Hello, Risky. Reconsider that, please. The reason I posted that study is that it is encouraging. In the midst of so many talented musicians, there is hope. One either has inborn talent or none, and that can't be rectified. I know I was shortchanged in the talent department (God is very fair, and on the day I was born He was giving out either talent or good looks; one can't have both), but if I worked hard I could at least reach a passable level.

Maybe your standards are too high! My guess is you are far, far more proficient than me. Remember also learning is a series of plateaus punctuated by rises. Or perhaps you just got tired. That happens to me often, so I often migrate from one hobby to the next and back. I haven't played in a while, too, such that my fingertips hurt now when I play. I have to build the pads up again. It might help bring back the drive and the joy if you again play with good friends.

I will be 66 next month, so we are in the same age group. I'd like to try doing some early Ventures now and play at parties for all the 50th anniversary high-school reunions going on now. It's never too late to do something new or strive for something better. Frank Lloyd Wright is known for the work he did after he was way over 60. If he had retired then, we would never have heard of him. So pick up the guitar again, Risky, and get a few friends over.

I agree with what Noel has said.

Best personal regards,

Andy

[Steve Parish]

Does it apply to drummers haha

Yes, it most certainly does!
Besides hanging out with musicians, and dribbling on level stages... I practice, on a drum pad, 45 minutes/ 1 hour a day.
It's a nice habit I've got myself into.
I've been playing for nearly twenty years... practice keeps you on top of things, tip top and avoids taking a whole set to warm up playing wise!
A few years ago, I was doing the old practice three to four hours a day... I've managed to wean myself off of that, though!
Confuscious say using right leg as ride cymbal result in limp!
For all the drummers on here, out of curiosity, what do you practice on?
I've got a Steve Smith 'Backstage' practice pad...

[Risky]

Hello, Risky. Reconsider that, please. The reason I posted that study is that it is encouraging. In the midst of so many talented musicians, there is hope. One either has inborn talent or none, and that can't be rectified. I know I was shortchanged in the talent department (God is very fair, and on the day I was born He was giving out either talent or good looks; one can't have both), but if I worked hard I could at least reach a passable level.

Maybe your standards are too high! My guess is you are far, far more proficient than me. Remember also learning is a series of plateaus punctuated by rises. Or perhaps you just got tired. That happens to me often, so I often migrate from one hobby to the next and back. I haven't played in a while, too, such that my fingertips hurt now when I play. I have to build the pads up again. It might help bring back the drive and the joy if you again play with good friends.

I will be 66 next month, so we are in the same age group. I'd like to try doing some early Ventures now and play at parties for all the 50th anniversary high-school reunions going on now. It's never too late to do something new or strive for something better. Frank Lloyd Wright is known for the work he did after he was way over 60. If he had retired then, we would never have heard of him. So pick up the guitar again, Risky, and get a few friends over.

I agree with what Noel has said.

Best personal regards,

Andy

Hi Andy

I'd like to admit to having high standards, but the only goal I ever aspired to was to get to the end of a tune without making a mistake

I will try to find some time to visit to my old mates at the Staffordshire Hankies and see if they can inspire me again.

Phil