Relations between Jerry Lordan and Shadows' individuals

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Re: Relations between Jerry Lordan and Shadows' individuals

Postby Moderne » 18 Sep 2015, 19:29

Fenderman wrote:I'm wondering what would have happened if the Shads took George Harrison's advice after 'Don't make my baby blue' and became a vocal band, that would have been interesting.


Although Hank now says they should have followed George's advice - in fact they half followed his advice at the time as their A-sides were alternate vocal and instrumental from then on. They were obviously reluctant to drop instrumentals completely as that was what they had become famous for. I think the problem was partly that they were fighting the 'old-fashioned' tag increasingly as the 60s wore on, but also songs such as I Met A Girl, The Dreams I Dream and Dear Old Mrs Bell just weren't strong enough to compete with The Beatles, The Hollies, Manfred Mann etc. I think A Place In The Sun (interestingly written by Petrina Lordan - who displayed a similar melodic genius to her husband!) was probably their strongest late 60s single - but even that only managed to get to 24 in the charts.

Also, Hank has stated several times that by the late 60s, radio stations were increasingly reluctant to play instrumentals - although Fleetwood Mac still managed to score a no. 1 with Albatross in 1969.

Incidentally, I understand Mike's comments about Rhythm 'n' Greens, but they still scored several more hits after that (Flingel Bunt, Don't Make My Baby Blue). The Miracle - although maybe a bit dated by 1964 - should have been the A-side.
Last edited by Moderne on 19 Sep 2015, 09:45, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Relations between Jerry Lordan and Shadows' individuals

Postby Fenderman » 18 Sep 2015, 19:40

I can't understand is if at the time they wanted to stay modern why release something like Dear Old Mrs Bell, did they honestly think that would have charted? By then you had bands like Cream and The Who playing more exciting and fresher music, although i can't see the Shads doing that kind of music they just seemed to lose direction after around 1965, then they got into tuxedos and played Talk of the Town. If i was their manager back then things would have been different
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Re: Relations between Jerry Lordan and Shadows' individuals

Postby JimN » 18 Sep 2015, 21:01

anniv 63 wrote:Diamonds and Scarlett O Hara were specifically composed for Jet &Tony at that time in 1963.
The Shadows were never offered these titles, a comment from Bruce Welch in some interview, indicated
that they perhaps would have liked to have had first refusal on these titles.
Again I would guess Atlantis was tailor made for the Shadows own sound- cant quite envisage a Bass V1
or detuning on this melody- anyone tried it!!!!!
Probably Jerry Lordan composed mostly to fit specific artists ie Im a moody guy Shane Fenton and Im just a baby
louise Cordet come to mind.
Anyone able to add further to help our friend?
Mike


Diamonds was recorded in 1962, not 1963 (it was released on 4th January), and it is unlikely that Scarlett O'Hara was written in 1963 either, since it was recorded quite early in the year for release by early spring.

Jerry Lordan's Atlantis had already been recorded by The Shadows (November 1962) by the time that Diamonds was released, meaning that it was never intended for Jet and Tony. It's possible it was recorded even before Diamonds was (but I don't have access to my data files where I am at the moment). Even Hank's composition Geronimo (which was the Shads' 1963 Christmas single) had already been recorded by the end of 1962.
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Re: Relations between Jerry Lordan and Shadows' individuals

Postby MikeAB » 18 Sep 2015, 21:41

Re ''but they still scored several more hits after that (Flingel Bunt, Don't Make My Baby Blue)'' - that's just my point really as 'Bunt' was of course the one before R 'n G and had put them back in the top 5 again with a more modern sound. Such a wasted opportunity - I would have gone for 'Blue Shadows' with some free form jamming over the 'middle bit', backed with 'Dakota'. Ah well.
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Re: Relations between Jerry Lordan and Shadows' individuals

Postby alewis41 » 18 Sep 2015, 23:01

Fenderman wrote:I can't understand is if at the time they wanted to stay modern why release something like Dear Old Mrs Bell, did they honestly think that would have charted? By then you had bands like Cream and The Who playing more exciting and fresher music, although i can't see the Shads doing that kind of music they just seemed to lose direction after around 1965, then they got into tuxedos and played Talk of the Town. If i was their manager back then things would have been different


Yep. Easily the worst song they ever recorded in my opinion. Just dreadful.
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Re: Relations between Jerry Lordan and Shadows' individuals

Postby Moderne » 19 Sep 2015, 09:52

MikeAB wrote:Re ''but they still scored several more hits after that (Flingel Bunt, Don't Make My Baby Blue)'' - that's just my point really as 'Bunt' was of course the one before R 'n G and had put them back in the top 5 again with a more modern sound. Such a wasted opportunity - I would have gone for 'Blue Shadows' with some free form jamming over the 'middle bit', backed with 'Dakota'. Ah well.

Sorry...my mistake, for some reason I thought Flingel Bunt was after R 'n' G. Although ultimately pointless to speculate of course, but I wonder how My Way or Better Man Than I would have fared as A-sides...
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Re: Relations between Jerry Lordan and Shadows' individuals

Postby Fenderman » 19 Sep 2015, 12:56

I think Stay Around would have been a strong A-side but that's just my opinion.
A place in the sun was easily their best single of 1966.
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Re: Relations between Jerry Lordan and Shadows' individuals

Postby Iain Purdon » 19 Sep 2015, 15:16

All this speculation is interesting in itself but, whatever you think of Dear Old Mrs Bell as an A-side, the decision will have been made by Norrie Paramor. It was his job to make the record and sell it. I'm sure there were many factors to be weighed up and unfortunately we can't ask him.
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Re: Relations between Jerry Lordan and Shadows' individuals

Postby GoldenStreet » 21 Sep 2015, 13:10

JimN wrote: Jerry Lordan's Atlantis had already been recorded by The Shadows (November 1962) by the time that Diamonds was released, meaning that it was never intended for Jet and Tony. It's possible it was recorded even before Diamonds was (but I don't have access to my data files where I am at the moment). Even Hank's composition Geronimo (which was the Shads' 1963 Christmas single) had already been recorded by the end of 1962.

Both Atlantis and Geronimo were recorded on 13 December 1962 (according to Malcolm Campbell's database) and, from what I've been able to glean, Diamonds was recorded on 23 November 1962.

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Re: Relations between Jerry Lordan and Shadows' individuals

Postby Peter K » 21 Sep 2015, 15:24

Hi,

yes, all we can do now is speculate and hindsight is always easier than foresight.

I think that there was simply no better material around to be recorded when the Shadows did "Dear Old Mrs. Bell".
We can't ask Norrie Paramor anymore if he really believed in this song but I doubt that the Shadows believed in it. Maybe they lost their direction after recording " I met a girl" and "The dreams I dream" ?

Why weren't they able to write really strong instrumentals like "Flingel Bunt" or "Theme for young lovers" anymore?

We also have to consider that they wrote truly top songs for their Marvin, Welch & Farrar albums and for the first "new" Shadows album "Rockin' with curly leads". The single "Turn around and touch me"
should have been a smash hit, but it wasn't. Maybe the addition of John Farrar was a kind of fresh blood for their song writing skills, but he left just before singles' success returned with "Argentina".
I don't have a clue about John's real influence, would he have recorded "Argentina" with them?
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